Ep. 342: Behind the Scenes: Eavesdrop on Shannon’s Weekly Marketing Strategy Call for Web Designers

Shannon Mattern: Hey there. Shannon mattered here and welcome to Pep Talks for Side Hustlers, a podcast that brings you side hustle success stories, motivation, and actionable advice to help you go from side hustle to self-employed without taking a pay cut. So I started side hustling back in 2014 as a web designer and after several months of undercharging and over-delivering, I decided to quit doing one-on-one web design work and started teaching people how to do it themselves instead. And what I didn't expect was all of the students who just wanted to hire me to build their websites for them. So I fixed my broken freelance web design business, got it profitable and sustainable, and then I was finally able to replace my six figure income and quit my day job. So on Pep Talks for Side Hustlers, I not only share with you my ongoing business journey, but I also bring you stories of successful side hustlers who started from scratch, just like you, and have gone on to replace their paycheck and create six and even seven figure online businesses. So if you're a do-it-yourselfer or a web designer, I have got tons of free resources to help you build a profitable, sustainable, and scalable business. So head on over to shannonmattern.com/free to get your hands on them. Okay. So let's go ahead and dive in Into this week's episode.

Shannon Mattern: Welcome to episode 342 of Pep Talks for Side Hustlers. And this week I've got a really special episode for you. So I don't know if you know this about me, but I am a Type A planner. Shocking, I know. And my business calendar is booked out for months. We have the entire year of Pep Talks for Side Hustlers episodes planned out, and we've got our production system down like clockwork. And I do my guest interviews on the first Wednesday of every month in batches. And then those episodes get produced and published about two months after the interviews. And sometimes stuff happens. People miss their interviews, you know, because of life and because we're so tightly scheduled, we can't always reschedule them right away. So I was thinking... and that's what happened with episode 342. Our guest was unable to make it.

Shannon Mattern: So I was thinking what's something that I have already done that I could use for a Pep Talks for Side Hustlers episode, so that I don't have to spend four hours that I don't have scheduled writing and recording a solo show. And that exact same week, we had an epic live strategy call inside of our Web Designer Academy program. I mean, all of our calls leave me super inspired and energized, but this one gave me chills. It was so powerful. And I thought everyone needs to hear this, whether they're a web designer or not. These questions and answers and concepts apply to every kind of business. And so in this episode, you get to eavesdrop on one of our weekly marketing strategy calls, exclusively for students inside of our Web Designer Academy. But before we dive in, I just want to say this, you know, when you decide to work with us on a deeper level, whether you're a web designer who works with us in the Web Designer Academy on your business and marketing strategy, or you're an online business owner of any kind, a service provider, a coach, a course creator, digital product seller, whatever, who works with us to market your business and move people from subscriber to customer inside of our website marketing lab, it is our live Q&A calls and strategy calls that just take our programs to the next level and set them apart from all the other "online" courses out there, because we know that, of course, you can log into our course dashboards and watch all of our training modules and print our workbooks and do the exercises and do the work and make the websites and make the freebies and set up all of the stuff.

Shannon Mattern: Right? But at the end of the day, you're coming into our programs with your busted mindset about not being good enough, or being an imposter, or all the other stuff that I have also personally experienced so I know exactly what you're thinking, and all of your limiting beliefs about what's possible for you. And it is that stuff that prevents you from taking action, from implementing our strategies, from putting yourself out there, prevents you from actually just doing the things to give yourself the chance for success. And back in the day, when I was running around like a crazy person jumping from course to course to course, searching for the answers, searching for the overnight success, searching for the traffic explosions, it truly wasn't until I joined a program that gave me the opportunity to have an expert's eyeballs on my specific business and gave me opportunities to get my specific questions answered that made all the difference in the world.

Shannon Mattern: And now I don't even consider joining a program unless there is some sort of component that I can get explicit, exclusive help on my own business. Like I know that joining a course without me being able to get feedback from that course creator is not going to help me because I bring all of my blind spots into that program. And that's what our live strategy calls inside of our programs are really about. Helping you get out of your own way so that you can reach your goals. And it's the people inside of our programs who attend the calls that ask questions that show me that their blind spots are glaringly obvious and that they don't even see them. So many times they ask a question and the question that they're asking isn't even the question, right?

Shannon Mattern: And then I get to identify like, Oh, I see exactly what's holding you back. Here's what we really need to be talking about. Right? And so it's those people that show up and ask the questions that get massive, massive results inside of our program. So that's why I wanted to invite you to listen in on this call. And, you know, I hope you will get a ton out of it. And I want you, after you listen, to head over to shannonmattern.com/342, or you can find this episode on Instagram at shannonlmattern and leave us a comment there. I would love to know your biggest takeaway, your biggest mindset shift from this week's episode. And p.s. If you are a web designer who is undercharging and over-delivering or afraid to market yourself, consider this your personal invitation to watch a replay of a free pricing workshop that we recently hosted just for web designers, all about how much to charge for your services and all the mindset stuff that you need to fix so that you'll actually believe that you can charge that much for your services. So head on over to shannonmattern.com/pricing to get free instant access to that training. And let's go ahead and dive into the behind the scenes of my weekly marketing strategy call for web designers.

Shannon Mattern: Hello. Hello, everyone. Welcome to our Web Designer Academy live strategy call Tuesday, March 23rd. So excited to see you all coming in. I love it. Love it, love it. Hello everyone. So before we get started with this week's questions, first welcome Erica, super excited to have you new new students. So very, very thrilled to have you guys here. As you guys are coming in, share your wins in the chat. Let us know all the things that you are excited about, that you're proud of that you've done. You know, we want to hear it all and celebrate you. So as I always say, your wins are actions that you have taken that you're proud of. And they can also be outcomes from those actions, but we want to celebrate all of the actions that you're taking on your business. So Jennifer says I'm unveiling the complete draft website to my client today. Woo hoo!

Shannon Mattern: Congratulations, Jennifer. That's a big, big moment. The big reveal. So very cool. Wendy said I've planned out my website in a week challenge to start April 5th, 2021. That is awesome. Wendy. Good job. That's incredible. Corey said I've done a few website assessments in exchange for market research and it has been a breakthrough territory for me. Okay. I want to hear more about that, Corey. Do you feel like you could come on and share more about what that breakthrough is? I know, like I don't want to put anybody on the spot, but I'd love to know. You can even put it in the comments if you don't want to come on and chat.

Corey: Yeah, so you had put that in the earlier modules and I was kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'm not ready for that. And then when I kind was of like, okay, it's time to start marketing, I was kind of like, ewww. And, so I just kind of took Danby's How To Do Market Website Assessment. And that was really helpful. I don't know, somehow I challenged myself to just do it, and you'll see it later. My question for you today was kind of like, how do I know what kind of groups to target? And so it was kind of a scattershot, shotgun approach. And I mean, I had really great conversations with two people, but totally not my niche. I'm like, okay, I'm getting it now. And so then today I have two meetings with coaches and I'm like, aahhh, coaches, they're my people. So that's been really huge.

Shannon Mattern: That is incredible. And one, I love that you kind of took, like, really imperfect, messy action. You're just like, okay, l'm scared to do this. I'm going to do it. I'm just going to put it out there. Like, there's really no perfect, right way to do it. It's just kind of like when you get to that point of I am going to kind of throw up some stuff against the wall and see what sticks. So I'm really, really thrilled for you. That's the putting ourselves out there piece that feels really scary, but every time I've ever felt that scared, there was always something so good on the other side of it. And I feel like you're getting the benefit of that. Like, okay, I didn't die. And I actually have some good people to talk to so we can repeat that. Awesome. Congratulations.

Shannon Mattern: Let's see. Heather said not website related, but the Kindle version of my novel is available for pre-order. That is so cool, by the way, Heather. That's just incredible that you're also publishing novels on Kindle and, you know, kicking butt on designing websites. You're just like this dual threat. I love it. Amy finished a website today. You are getting faster. That is huge. That's awesome, Amy. Erica finished Module Two today and I feel like I really have some clarity. Erica, I'm so happy you're here. And when you posted, "I booked that client!" When she was joining, she's like, Oh, and I have a client consult tomorrow. I'm like, here's all the things that you need. And then you booked it. So I think that's so cool. And I'm glad you're getting tons of clarity. So we're thrilled to have you here. We're so glad you joined us. Let's see, Judy is planning to take a redesign client site live April 5th. Awesome. So it sounds like that is going on track if you're planning to do it and you're sharing it as a win. It doesn't sound like there's a problem with it. Things are going well. So that's really good. Jennifer watched Danby's presentation. Just put that next on your list. Seriously. It's so good.

Shannon Mattern: Barb is putting the finishing touches on her impromptu mini course. This is part of the co-creation service I'm working on with my latest client. So excited and she's got a lot of other coaches that she's going to be recommending to me too. Barb, so awesome. So can you tell me a little bit more about this impromptu mini course, because I've done this for other people too, if it's the same thing. So tell me a little bit more about what you're doing.

Barb: So it's kind of weird how this is kind of changing directions for me, but, yeah, basically, I'm setting her up in Membervault and I basically made this mini course to gather all the information that I need. And I just filmed, like seriously, 15 videos yesterday to drop them in (Shannon - does your mouth hurt today?) For real! It's like, "mumble mumble mumble"! But she's so excited and she's already like, Hey, I want to do another one in there and I want to do another one. So there's like lots of work that she's going to hand me just in the near future. And then she's like, I know all these people who need your help too. So, I've built in an affiliate bonus to her and then she's spreading the word. This girl is like on fire and she's a coach. She's who I want to work with. So it's kind of interesting that this is going this direction. Cause I'm thinking if this pulls me away from web design, I'm even okay with that. If that's the direction that's goes, I'm just riding the wave, you know.

Shannon Mattern: So what is the course that you're creating for her?

Barb: This is called the Semi-Custom Course Kit. And basically I, okay.... Look at the look on your face! (Shannon - so good). I'm setting up stuff in Membervault for her. I mean, instead of just handing over a big long Google doc, I kind of followed the direction that you've gone here with WDA and just made videos, walking them through, like, this is the section that we're talking about now. This is what the information is that I need. And that's it. That's it.

Shannon Mattern: So you made that for her to use with her clients?

Barb: For her to use to give me the information. And then like when others are wanting to sign up for me to build their course too, they just go through that little mini course and I'm gathering all their information. So it's kind of like a tool that I'm using for my services.

Shannon Mattern: So cool. Yeah. Okay. That is awesome. So you made a course to tell them how to give you what you need for you to make their course.

Barb: Yes, exactly. It's a course for a course.

Shannon Mattern: Love it. Yeah. And so, and so this client is like so thrilled. So someone could also do it themselves, right? (Barb - that's the plan too). It's like, I could do this for you and this is what you need to give me. Also I'm walking you through you doing it for you.

Barb: Exactly, exactly. But I'm also throwing in like some templates for her too. So like you need a workbook. I've got you covered. If you need some slides for your presentation or webinar or whatever, I'm throwing that in as well. So she's like over here raising the roof and shouting it out already. I'm like, hold on, let me finish building it.

Shannon Mattern: Oh! , So you're getting paid to build this and then you're just going to resell it. ( Barb - Yes, exactly). That's like the dream right there. So that's what I talk to you guys about when we're like, these clients that we do? Let's think about two things. One, we have to finish the client website and do all of the things, but then how can we also concurrently create an asset that we can reuse with other stuff? So, so proud of you! That's incredible. So when you said that, it was not what I was thinking you were doing. But still really, really better than what I was thinking anyway. But I've done collaborations with people who serve my ideal audience. So, what comes to mind is Kayse Morris of the CEO Teacher Academy.

Shannon Mattern: I know there are several of you in here who know her. And she has asked me to create something for her and so I created a WooCommerce training for her students, for her Teacher Pay Teacher sellers. I created a course for her, but then, you know, I'm turning that into Store In A Snap. You know, I have Site In A Snap, but then I'm turning that into Store In A Snap. So I've taught everybody how to use WooCommerce, but now here are the templates that you need to sell your Teacher, Pay Teacher resources. And I'm only making that available to her and it'll be affiliate. And you know, but she will, market it to everybody for me. And it'll be like a bonus. So I've done little things like that too, for other collaborators where I've like built something for them and we just done it in different mindset.

Shannon Mattern: That's what I thought you were talking about too, but that's cool too. It kind of is the same thing really, because you're creating this course that you're then going to resell. So very cool. Wendy said "also a win - I realize that people see me as more than a web designer, but as a mentor and a business coach". Wendy, that's a huge win. And I think that's because you see yourself as more than a web designer, but also a mentor and a business coach. We have to make that transition in our own minds that like, Oh, we're not just a pixel pusher service provider, like, tell me what to do and I'll do it. We make the shift to that person. So congratulations, I'm really proud of you for getting to that point and making that transition. Tiffany got all of her legal stuff sorted and my contract set up as a template. Yay!

Shannon Mattern: That's like one of those admin boxes that you just probably delayed checking off for who knows? Years sometimes. Yeah. The new five-day to do it. Kelly has a client consult Thursday and she's an ideal client, a mompreneur coach who's looking for a website to grow her business. Kelly, we are so excited for you and we can't wait to hear what happens. Elise has projects booked til May. Elise is booked out! Booked out! Congratulations. This is the first time you have projects booked in advance. Oh my gosh. You guys are incredible. Loving it. All right. I'm just making sure I've shared all the wins, then we'll dive into questions. Barb said someone finally responded to my freebies. That's always a win too. Okay, cool. So let's dive in to your questions for today.

Shannon Mattern: And then also if you guys have a question that you didn't submit, please submit. And then also if anybody feels like they are struggling and that they need some more help and maybe they don't feel comfortable in a public forum like Facebook or they don't feel comfortable live on this call, but you just feel like you need some extra help, please go ahead and submit a question in the submit for review. It's private. I'm the only one who sees it. And you know, I know sometimes that when things don't feel like they're going well, cause I know we like celebrate all these wins and I love it. And I love you guys to see what's possible, but sometimes it can be like, well, why isn't it happening for me? And you don't feel comfortable like sharing the blues in the Facebook group. Which, first of all, if you were wanting permission, you have full permission to share the blues in the Facebook group, I would love to help you with that.

Shannon Mattern: But if you don't feel comfortable, just submit your question in the Submit Work For Review and we will go through it and just make sure you have the help that you need. The onus is on you to ask for the help if you are struggling. But I don't want you to have to ask publicly if you don't feel comfortable doing that. So I just want to make sure that you know that we're here for you and that it doesn't always have to be in a public way for you to ask that. And Barb said, plus the rest of the WDA fam can help you. Yes. If you are struggling, we would love to help you. All of us would. This group is incredible that way. But I also understand that there sometimes are people that are just like, I don't want to post in there.

Shannon Mattern: I don't feel comfortable. So I just want to invite you to... we are here for you, whatever way works best for you. So okay, with that being said, two quick announcements, and then we will dive into the questions that were submitted this week. First, I hope everybody's signed up for Alicia St. Germaine's workshop for tomorrow. I'm going to be there too, going through it again. It's transformational stuff. So I hope those of you that wanted to sign up could sign up. I asked her if there would be a replay for it and she actually doesn't do a replay. It's a four hour workshop. She doesn't do a replay. I'm pretty sure she's going to.... I'm going to talk to her. She'll probably be doing this once a quarter for us. So I'll find the next dates for those of you that couldn't attend.

Shannon Mattern: But then she also has some prerecorded modules that you could go through the process on your own, but it's just not as impactful as if you can do it live. So I'll make sure either way that you guys can all take advantage of this. Heather's like, I would love to go, but I can't do four hours with three kids at home. I'll make sure you guys can get access to the self study piece of it. It's still really transformational if you can do the self study piece of it too. But there'll be another opportunity to attend live if you guys couldn't attend live. Jennifer's like, I took half day off and didn't tell anyone why. Good. It's an intensive workshop, so you'll need that time. But I love it.

Shannon Mattern: Next week I am taking a staycation. So you guys, I think you all are doing something on Clubhouse, some of you. You can use it as work time, all of that. So, Kelly, I'm not sure. You're asking, can you jump on late? I don't know how late you can jump on, but if you're already registered and you jumped on late, I think you should just let Alicia know. Send her a reply to one of those emails and just be like, Hey, here's what time I'm going to be jumping on. Cause I know she'll like break you out into groups and partners and stuff like that too. So it's like interactive. So yeah, I'll be off next week. So if you guys have Submit Work for Review, please make sure that you get those in.

Shannon Mattern: I'll make sure I get all of that done by Friday. I don't intend to be in the Facebook group next week, but I probably will check in on you guys because I want to make sure that if you have like a situation, a consultation schedule, or something that, I can respond. Cause I know those things don't wait for vacation. So I'll probably be checking in in the morning. I know, Barb, take a vacation. My new project manager Bree would be like, no, you are not allowed to do that. But on the back end of my business, we've made a lot of changes and I do intend to add a Web Designer Academy specific person. It's just I got to stabilize with all the changes, get that solid before we move forward with that.

Shannon Mattern: So eventually if I take time off, you guys don't see any difference, you know, you'll just see someone else popping into to run the show for those times. So, yeah. Oh, cool. Corey put the self study in for tomorrow. Awesome. Thanks Corey. You guys are so awesome. All right. Let's dive into our Q&A. Okay. We've got four questions.

Shannon Mattern: All right, Corey, you are up first. She said "I watched the marketing module and now starting my top 25 and 1-1-1. I'm not super deep with social media. So joining groups and interacting is fairly new to me. I'm finding a few groups that are small and comfortable, where I've started new connections with the admins who have about 200 or 400 in their groups. Is this a good strategy for now? Any advice for getting over social media fears? Should I be aiming a little larger with my top 25? I know the answer is likely yes." Actually the answer is no, Corey. You're doing perfect. You're doing great. 200 to 400 people is 200 to 400 people that you did not know before and that's a lot. Right? So I think that what you're doing is great and you pushed through the fear of even 200 to 400. So you can just keep it small like that. And also those smaller group, a lot of times, they're more engaged. It's not like a big, huge group with thousands of people in it where nobody's really seeing anything anybody else is doing. So I think you're doing great, yeah. I would just keep doing that. Do you have any other questions?

Corey: No, just needed a few reassurances.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. Yeah. I mean you can look for groups. If you said it's coaches, there's so many groups on Facebook that you can find that support coaches. You could go to LinkedIn, but just kind of follow it and see where it takes you. With the people that you're connecting with you'll probably just kind of like find organically other places where you can go. It's not like when we are building an audience to sell a digital product or a course or even templates. When you just need one client, you don't need a hundred people buying your thing. So it's a little bit different and you can go a little bit smaller. So, yeah. Awesome. Good question. Thanks.

Shannon Mattern: All right. Leslie asks "my first client in environmental nonprofits hired me to create an event registration page, which should have been a pretty straightforward half day project. She typically updates the site, but it was clear to me from the get go that she's too busy to keep up with it. She knows just enough to be dangerous." Don't don't all of our clients, right? "The URL is not secure, there are plugins, no privacy policy. Instead of giving me the info and letting me do the worksheet, she insisted that we work together over zoom. She wanted to use a particular plugin that from discussions I found didn't work more than half the time. I gave her alternatives, but she decided against all of them. I couldn't even explore because she would only give me access if she was online with me. There was obviously a boundary issue at work here. She says she still wants me to help her get the privacy policy, et cetera, setup. How could I handle this better so that I can just get what I need to do the work without her monitoring me the whole time?" Yeah. That's really interesting. Leslie, are you un-muted?

Leslie: She definitely had a control issue. It was more like me mentoring her doing the stuff instead of me doing it. I mean, I asked her for all this stuff ahead of time and told her how to set me up as an administrator. And she waited until we got on the call for all of it.

Shannon Mattern: So are you done with the initial engagement?

Leslie: Yeah.

Shannon Mattern: Has she paid you?

Leslie: No, I have to send her a bill. I didn't send her a bill ahead of time because it was just for a half a day.

Shannon Mattern: We always want to get paid ahead of time even if it's just half a day. Like that payment ahead of time reserves that spot on your calendar. So just for going forward. And so your half a day was complete, right? You spent a half a day and you got done everything?

Leslie: No. She still doesn't have enough. She has an empty event page with nothing on it. She has no form because she didn't like any of the options I gave her.

Shannon Mattern: Has she paid your for half? What was the agreement of the job?

Leslie: That I would have set up an event page for her with a form in Divi.

Shannon Mattern: Was it a time-based job or a deliverable space job? How did you charge her? What was the agreement?

Leslie: It was a minimum of two hours, a maximum of four hours. And I gave her an hourly rate, which I know you're against.

Shannon Mattern: This is why. Because what they think is a small job and what you think is a small job is never a small job.

Leslie: Well, you know, basically, she decided in the end she's just going to put out a paper flyer with a link on it, which I told her was a really bad idea because you get some weird people showing up in your zoom meeting. I know people this has happened to.

Shannon Mattern: Oh yeah. So this is where you kind of have a decision to make. Did you spend two hours with her or four hours? So there are two more hours that she agreed to pay you for.

Leslie: Yeah, up to. I said minimum two, and she said maximum four.

Shannon Mattern: You said minimum two, maximum four.

Leslie: I should just send her a bill for the two hours

Shannon Mattern: Well, you could do that or you could use this as an opportunity to set some boundaries and grow.

Leslie: I actually told her a half day exclusive. I tried that. She doesn't know how much work she needs done. She needs her privacy policy. She's a nonprofit in California.

Shannon Mattern: Here's the thing. We have to let our clients make their own decisions, right? You can guide and advise all you want, but if they're not going to take your advice, this is where your boundaries come in. And this is where you need to be really clear on what you are willing to do for this client going forward. So let me ask you, what are you willing to do for this client going forward? Regardless of whether she takes it or not? It's okay. If the answer is nothing.

Leslie: I might be willing to set up her privacy policy and cookie notice, but that'd be it.

Shannon Mattern: And are you willing to do that on the phone with her?

Leslie: I'm not sure because I'm not going to write her cookie policies for her. She's got to do that.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. On this call. I want you to decide how you want to move forward with this. Whether it's you're ending it, or you're setting some boundaries. 'I said up to two hours and then here's what I could possibly do in two hours. But I will not be able to get that done if you were on the call with me.' So, what are you willing to do? I guess that's what I'm asking you. If we were going to give her a choice, right? We always give our clients a choice. I always say, choice is better than no choice. You're going to make her choose between your boundaries.

Leslie: Okay. This is so unexpected and weird,

Shannon Mattern: These things happen. And that's why I'm saying this is like an opportunity for you to decide how you want to handle a situation like this, so that in the future you know how to handle a situation like this. Because now you know that you're going to get paid upfront, that you're going to get all of the information that you need to do the work before the call starts. And if you don't get the information to do the work before the call starts, then there 's a forfeit. You need to have all these policies in place beforehand to say, "Hey, I haven't received everything that I need from you 24 hours prior. I need this. Otherwise, our engagement isn't happening tomorrow.' And so these are the things that we have to have in place beforehand so that you don't get on a call and then she's like, 'okay, I'm going to babysit you the whole time that you're working now and not give you access.' You would have found out the day before that she wasn't comfortable giving you access. And then you could have coached her through that process. To say, I'm going to make a backup of your site. You're going to make me an administrator, but you remove my account when we're done. And coach her through that piece. This is a huge learning opportunity for you to know what to do, what you'll do differently next time. But also it's an opportunity to figure out, okay, when something does go sideways, how do I want to handle it? I know we all just want to be like, gosh, I hope when I send her a bill and she just pays it and nothing comes of it. But then you kind of leave yourself open to the next time she emails. And then you're like, Oh, she emailed me again. And then you have this like pit in your chest, you know, so we want to like deal with it. I'm saying this because there were so many things I didn't deal with in my early days that just stressed me out so bad that if I saw that person's name in my inbox, I just didn't want to check my email anymore. It's like, pretend I didn't see that. So Option A is you can say, 'I know we said a minimum of two hours, we completed two hours and I'll send you an invoice' or' what would you want to do there?

Leslie: I would send her the invoice for the two hours. And if she wants to go forward with the privacy policy and all that, and the other pieces, that would be a separate engagement.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. I think that that's a good way to go about it. 'Here's the invoice for our time the other day, if you'd like to book another block with me, here's how that works. And l need all of this information.' And then you can say, 'I noticed that you didn't feel comfortable letting me just do the work by myself. Is there something I could do to...'. I don't know how to phrase it. I'm trying to think of how to phrase it. But if she books again, then you can say, 'we can get way more done if I'm just doing it by myself'. You could also just say 'otherwise it's going to need to be a four hour engagement to accomplish this'.

Shannon Mattern: That's how I would handle it. If you're going to be on with me, it's going to need to be four hours. But if you don't need to be on with me, I can get it done in two. And that's how I would phrase that to her. If you're okay with her being on with you. But you're incentivizing her to be like, okay, I'll let her do it by herself for two sure.

Leslie: This was just not something that was even in my imagination would happen.

Shannon Mattern: But now you know. People do weird things and that's why we kind of put almost those like roadblocks. And I wouldn't call them roadblocks, but they're kind of like roadblocks. They're kind of like speed bumps. It's like, okay, if you're booking, you have to pay up front. If I'm going to do this, you have to give me all of stuff. And then if at any point that's going to break down, it's at least going to break down before you get to the point of having delivered the work. And then you have all of the policies in place where you can just refer back to your contract and be like, Oh, okay, so they didn't give me everything I needed in 24 hours. My cancellation fee is that they forfeit this or they have to pay a rescheduling fee because I wasn't able to resell this spot. So all of that would be in the agreement. That's all in our contract templates that they would have agreed to all of that beforehand. So, definitely go through all of that before you let her book again. And make her sign this contract before you let her book again.

Leslie: Well, I did make her sign a contract that I threw together fast.

Shannon Mattern: So, get to the workbook with the exclusive booking terms and conditions and make sure you have all of that stuff in her next contract so that you have those levers to pull when she's not cooperating.

Leslie: Okay.

Shannon Mattern: Good question. I'm sorry that happened to you. But also it's like one of these things where you're just like, I know how to handle that for next time. Because you will have people that for whatever reason, just don't behave the way you would have expected them to, from all things leading up to that.

Leslie: Yeah. I didn't get mad or anything. I just was like, all right. Whatever.

Shannon Mattern: So do you have any other questions about that? Do you feel confident in how to move forward?

Leslie: Yes. Thank you.

Shannon Mattern: Okay, good. You're welcome.

Shannon Mattern: I used to totally avoid those situations and it caused me more stress than just dealing with them head-on. So my policy is just deal with it head on now.

Shannon Mattern: So Heather asks, "can you talk more about how to charge for exclusive bookings? Is it an hourly rate? Thinking this will be much more feasible for me with my current life circumstances than long-term projects are." So my friend, Sarah Masci teaches day rates in-depth exclusively. I haven't taken her training, so I don't know she how she teaches it. I know you could probably talked to other people in here to dive into that. But exclusive bookings aren't necessarily an hourly rate. They're still paying you for your time, right? But you charge more for that than you would charge an hourly rate and say it's $1000 for a day or $500 for a half day.

Shannon Mattern: And I get done what I get done. That's the thing with the exclusive booking. You have this thing that you need done or these things that you need done and, great if I can get them all done in that amount of time, I will. But our mutual understanding is that this day might end and I may not be done with those things. And if you want them to be finished, then you would need to buy another block of time with me. And so I think that it's just being super, super clear on what that entails. I'm putting her name in the chat, Sarah Masci. So it's not an hourly rate and I wouldn't go less than four hours. Like Leslie, if you're going to do this again, even if you think something's going to take two hours, it's probably going to take four when you have a client involved. Not even on the zoom with you, but just the extra work it requires. When it's our own stuff it takes us half the time because we know all the answers and we have everything. But when there's a client involved, it takes a lot longer. So I wouldn't do anything less than a half day. But the reason that you can price those higher is that it's very outcome driven, right? That's why we talk about like our high, medium, and low end offer being like templates. I's very possible that you could spin up a website for someone in a day if they gave you everything that you needed beforehand. And so you can price that accordingly. But then it's like, Oh, but I don't guarantee that it will be completely done. I will tell you where we ended up. And if you want to buy another block of time with me, you can. And I don't guarantee that all of this will get done. So that's really the deal with that. Do you have any other questions about it?

Heather: No. I just wanted to clarify that because I just have been trying to think of how to make this work with my kids. Starting to wonder if long-term projects, I mean, I'll still offer them. But I'm just starting to wonder if that's gonna work for me right now, because my life is insane as you've seen. And so it seems like a day rate or an exclusive booking is a better way for me to make the kind of money I'd like to make, but maybe not have to put in weeks and weeks worth of work.

Shannon Mattern: When you're thinking about whether it's bigger projects or day rates, the way that I want you guys to plan for when you work is the exact same. So if you watch the project management module, I want you guys to decide, what days am I doing client work? Whether that's part of a 12 week project or an exclusive booking, I'm only doing this client work on Thursdays from this time to this time. Because I do my consultations on this day. So it's not like you book the project and then suddenly you drop everything and you focus all of your energy on this client until the project's done. Heather, I don't know how structured you're able to be with your kids. You know, if it's a day by day thing or if it's a week-by-week thing, still, you have to figure out what works for you in terms of, my development days are Tuesday and Thursday, and I am not working on these client projects outside of that. Because Monday is the day I work on my business. Wednesday is the day I do consultations. And so that helps you kind of figure out how many projects can I take on at one time and when am I working on these? And so, you know with the project management process that I give you, I'm thinking for a high end project where you're doing the heavy lifting, that's why they have to get you all of the content by X, because you know that on this day you're doing the copywriting and on this day you're doing that and you have it all planned out. So whether someone booked you for the day and paid you for it, or they booked you for three weeks and your development days are these to get their project done, it's the same thing.

Heather: Yeah. And part of it too is my husband has an alternating schedule and he works out of town. So when he's gone for work, he's gone. Like it's just me. So those days, especially, it's very difficult to get anything done. When I do get stuff done, I feel very accomplished.

Shannon Mattern: Like I showered today! (laughter).

Heather: Well, I actually got, I got this scheduled. Yay! But I got these three other things that totally didn't happen.

Shannon Mattern: Right. And I think for you, his alternating schedule, you know when it's going to happen. Right? So for you, it'd be planning like, okay, I booked this project and because of this alternating schedule I'm not going to try to work on it during these times. I'm going to front load it here and you just work. You have to work these projects around your life deliberately. Otherwise it does get overwhelming and you'll find yourself in burnout, even if you're still getting the clients, if that makes sense. So, there's still a lot of planning required. Because if it's exclusive bookings, then you're deciding what day you're doing those. You know? So planning was the hardest thing for me to really get a hold of. Picking the days and then sticking to the boundary of it.

Shannon Mattern: Because probably the anxiety of having this work hanging out there that I could be doing, but yet I need to be over here marketing, or I need to be over here doing this. It's so much easier. There's some relief that comes from just doing the work. At least that was my experience. And so I just put everything else aside to jump in and do this work to get the relief of it being done. But then the to-do list gets a thousand miles long. And so really it was just short-term relief and didn't really fix the problem. So even now, I just brought an OBM project manager onto my team. And she is organizing all of my work and what days things happen, and she's like holding me to it.

Shannon Mattern: We were talking yesterday and I was like, Oh, I could get that done on Monday. And she's like, no, you don't do that on Mondays. And I could just feel like the anxiety of like, but I need to get it done. And if I'm not going to do it Monday, I'll have to do it Tuesday. And just thinking that it's out there on my to-do list, but I can't just do it right now, it's something that I'm working on. So planning ahead and then holding yourself to the commitment is the big win. And then it does get easier because then you can start trusting yourself that I will do what I say I will do when I say I will do it, and I will hold my boundaries and I won't let other things derail me.

Shannon Mattern: And it takes some practice. It truly does. You're welcome. You're welcome. And go check out Sarah Masci. She's incredible. She's like my sister from another mister when it comes to this stuff we teach. We want the same things for you guys. And we just approach it two different ways. And it's really, really interesting.

Shannon Mattern: Laurie said," I always feel like I need to get the client work knocked out before I can work on my own work. Bad idea because then I never have enough time to do what I need to do for my business". Yeah. It's hard. I'm not gonna lie. Because it's one of those things where, oh, if I just get the client work done, then can get to my stuff. But you'll never put yourself first if you put other people first.

Shannon Mattern: And I'm so serious about you guys prioritizing your business because that's like the foundation for your future, for getting your future clients. And when you spend all of your time on the client and you don't feed your business, that's when you have projects end, and then it's that feast and famine mode. Nowhere in your contract that says, now you're going to drop everything and spend 24/7 on your client until the project is done. You have to put some boundaries there for yourself.

Shannon Mattern: Amy says," I teach full time and have three kids. I work on my side hustle when I take them to swimming, ballet, karate and every other Saturday." Yeah. I used to work in the car when we were traveling places. We would just go on the weekends, if we were driving to my husband's family or wherever we would go on the weekends, I would use that time on my laptop working and stuff. It was crazy.

Shannon Mattern: Venus said "I started using Google calendar to block out times in my week, color coded by task category. My purple blocks are self-care. Every time I'm doing one of those things, I see how much time I've needed in the past. So as long as I fill that quota, I can fill in gaps with business stuff and make sure I never have burnout". That is genius. Venus. I love that.

Shannon Mattern: Tiffany says" working through my scheduling was a big struggle, but once I got it, it made my life and business flow so much better." Same me too.

Shannon Mattern: Did I give you guys the painless planning workbook for the Web Designer Academy? I know I give it to the website marketing lab. I'm going to give you guys that, if I didn't already. You guys need that. It just gives you my planning system of figuring all of this out. So good stuff. You guys crack me up.

Shannon Mattern: Let's see, Barb says "I'm a workaholic" Barb, I'm a workaholic in recovery. I feel you. And I want you to nip it earlier than I did if you can. It's fun in the beginning, but then it becomes not fun, you know? So, good stuff you guys.

Shannon Mattern: All right. Let's dive into the next question. The last question, which is Venus. Venus, good to see you here. So Venus has been struggling with a decision on how to structure a brand and position your interests. Her spiritual business has been on hold since 2016 and "now I'm ready to really launch, but I'm juggling my passions and my life purpose. I would like to merge them. I'm not sure how this would look in terms of websites. My passions are e-learning in web design. My life purpose, using my skills and experience in life coaching and energy medicine and modern psychology trauma informed, not a licensed therapist, to help black women heal from generational traumas rooted in racism. Is there a business identity branding, marketing, positioning consultant that anybody can recommend that can help me get clarity on this? Before I dive into an e-learning course creation, web design consulting business, I think a breakthrough session would help me see me through this. Thank you." This is such a good question. So it sounds, Venus, like am I going to be doing two businesses, one business? Like what do I want to do? Right? So is there a world where your niche could be serving the other black women and coaches who are doing that type of work? Because I see all them all over the place.

Venus: I thought about that. Shannon. I just came off mute. I thought about that. I thought about what if I write label courses that they could brand, and then someone just new starting out could take these courses and brand them and put them on their website that I build for them. So I'm giving two solutions, because every day a new spiritual life coach is born and the world needs more kind, caring, nurturing people. But there's no,' Hey, you graduated. Here's, a start a business kit'. So I was thinking maybe the way that I blend both is I'm really good at technology. I'm like the house IT person, I didn't ask for it. But then also I have this creativity and this spiritual experience and education and a holistic health coach and plant medicines, all this stuff. I'm in grad school for ***inaudible*** design, by the way. And I graduate in May. So I'm thinking this is a great opportunity. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited. Thank you. That means so much to me. Because it's kind of a crazy, just like random, you know. I'm an e-learning developer for a hospital in San Francisco, but I have my own life outside of work. And so that's my passion, but it's not my purpose. And the spiritual stuff is my purpose. So I'm thinking I'm maybe that's what I can do is like offer templates, even like website templates, not your templates but my templates. I prefer Divi. I'm a Divi shop. It's what I built my website from. And also offer the shell of the website with a few options and maybe some basic courses that kind of get them started and be able to immediately start offerings, have some kind of structure for them because when I went through this and I've gone through.... Oh, okay. Jennifer says she's an ***inaudible*** designer too. And Jennifer, let's connect after this. I I'm thinking it's hard for someone who offers a service that is not tangible to get out there and start. They can call themselves a life coach all day, but it's a hobby until they start getting clients. So I'm thinking maybe that's the way that I can bridge the gap. What do y'all think?

Shannon Mattern: I think that you're very clear on how it can all come together. Because everything you said is what I've seen, you know? And so it's a matter of you.... that's what I was going to say. Barb, we need you to pipe in here in a second. Barb, why don't you just share how you've, how you've combined those two passions.

Barb: Venus man, we were right here. Well, I'm just kind of like going with the flow right now. I've just recently started embracing my spiritual woo-woo-ness and all of that, but walking in that light and just kind of letting things come to me and letting what I think my business needs to look like, kind of putting that on the side and just letting spirit guide me kind of. So that's kinda how I ended up with...I mean, my initial thought was I'm doing web design for spiritual coaches, but it's taken a turn to now I'm offering web design and brand design because I'm also doing that. But now course creation too. So I'm just kind of going with the flow. But I love working with the spiritual coaches because they get it. I mean, they get me, I get them. So yeah, this is your niche, honey. This is it.

Venus: And it's something that you wake up in the morning and you're excited. Shannon, you were mentioning, there were some emails that you're like, I don't even want to open it. I don't want to work with people like that. I want to work with people that is a joy

Barb: I've got a group for you to join. I'm getting the goosebumps, just thinking about this. This is like, that's how, you know. That's how, you know.

Venus: I would've joined today! I could have, but I thought it was at 3:00 PM central time. And I look up and I was like, ET?

Barb: Phone home! (laughter). I'm going to message you. I'm going to do it right now. I'm thinking about it. I'm going to send you this group. You gotta join it.

Venus: Okay, I'm going to put my email. Is that okay? Shannon, if i put my email, if anyone wants to send me any tips or maybe you have some idea, you know, two hours from now. And so I'm going to put my email in here and I'm going to go back on mute. Because I don't want to take up all your time

Shannon Mattern: I just wanted to jump in when you said just even niching down further to help black women heal from generational trauma rooted in racism. There are so many people out there that are coaches that are doing that work, that needs someone who is just as passionate about that as they are to help them have the kind of impact that they want to have with their work. And when you can come in and say, I get it and the kind of impact you can have is multiplied because you're helping 10, 20, 30 of these trauma informed coaches get their business online, serve their audience, start helping all of these people heal. It's almost as if you, as a web designer, can have more of an impact than if you were doing the coaching by yourself. If that makes sense. So you see that that work is so important. It's like you can go out there and be like, I want to help you do that work. I want to help you do that work. I want to help everyone who's doing that work to vdo that work.

Venus: That's it, that's it.

Shannon Mattern: And help them be successful.

Venus: I don't need to shine. I want to help other people shine where they are. I'm getting goosebumps. You hit the nail on the head. I want to cry. I don't need to shine. I just want to help other people who are stuck. And I want to clear the gap for them so they can do their work. Thank you. That's what I want to do.

Shannon Mattern: I'm so glad that you came on this call today.

Venus: Can I just say that is how I was last night? I was watching a Facebook live and it was full of women who were going to start faith based businesses or trying to start faith-based businesses. And so many were just getting stuck on the website and it hurt me to see that because they're not doing the work that they're called to do because they're getting stuck on the tech, which is not their calling. So I had to reframe how I was looking at it. Because I was going into this thinking I was going to start some other kind of ministry. And that was like, no. Tech is your ministry. Help these people get on line so they can do the work. And that's your work for right now. You don't have to do websites forever, but do it for now.

Barb: Yeah. Just, seriously, like just kind of go with the flow and see where spirit leads. That's really powerful stuff, right there, ,just to kind of see when you embrace that, and people are out there needing this and, and for example, this coach that I'm working with right now, she's not necessarily a spiritual that I know of. We haven't even discussed that, we weren't breached that convo, but this is exactly what she's telling me. She's like, "I would be stuck without you. Oh my goodness. I would not be able to launch this without the tech, without your tech help. Can you help me do this? Can you help me do that? What about this? " And I'm like, bring it on honey. I got you. I've got you. And now she's not stuck. She's excited because now she can help all the people that she helps. And I feel like I have arrived, you know? So yes ma'am 100%. We are right here.

Shannon Mattern: You guys blow me away. Seriously.

Venus: Thank you, Barb. Thank you, Shannon. Thank you, Wendy. Thank you all. Man, I could leave right now and I feel like I got everything I needed. I still got to finish the work, but thank you. I'll go back on mute, but I just wanted to say from my heart, sincerely, I'm not on Facebook right now. So anything you want to connect?

Barb: Uh oh. Where did she go?

Shannon Mattern: She put her email. Whoo. Zoom does need a reaction for goosebumps. I'm like misty-eyed and my light hairs grew. So you guys are incredible. This is the best call ever. So that's it for today. That's all of our questions. I will miss you guys terribly next week, but workaholic in recovery. So I am going to take the time off. I'm going to take the time off. I will check in on you guys in the Facebook group, probably just once a day in the morning while I'm having my coffee. But get any work that you want done for review submitted. I won't be doing work reviews or anything like that next week. And we won't have the call. But then I will be so excited to see you guys the following week. Thank you all. And, yeah, we'll see you see you in a couple of weeks. You guys are amazing. Talk to you soon. Bye everyone.

Shannon Mattern: To get all the links to the resources we mentioned in today's show, head on over to shannonmattern.com/ podcast. And if you're a non-techie do it yourselfer, or if you're a web designer who wants to turn your side hustle into a full-time income, head on over to shannonmattern.com/free where I've got loads of resources for you to create a profitable, sustainable, scalable business. Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you next week. Bye.