Ep. 373: How Entrepreneurs Just Like You Have Built Successful Businesses with Paul Klein of Bizable TV

Shannon Mattern: We're gonna talk a little bit more later about where everyone can go add Bizable TV to wherever they're consuming content. But I wanna kind of come back to this idea of, you know, we feel like we should be doing these things or staying in our job. And I even feel that now, where I've started things in my business that have worked well, but maybe I don't feel so passionate about it anymore or, you know, I wanna pivot and do something different. And then that kind of back and forth of, should I let this go? Should I do this? Should I move over here? So I was wondering if you've experienced that throughout your journey since we last talked? or before?

Paul Klein: Yeah, absolutely. And that's a great question. And just to help some of your listeners kind of with that, to give a little background, I left in '09. So Obama had just come in office, add October of '08, the stock market crashed all the way down to like 3,000 or 4,000. I mean, it was a brutal time for business. It didn't have a pandemic feel like it does now, but it was very dismal. And in April that year I left, and I had an 18 year career, $150,000 job, full benefits. All I needed to do was stay there until I was 55. But I had that niche. So, I jumped in '09. Everybody thought I was crazy. But since then I've started a different company, the SaaS company, my consulting company. But in my experience, what I haven't done is, what's the saying? Don't kill the goose that's laying the golden egg, right? I've seen some in this space go, 'you know what? I wanna do this now'. And they just drop everything rather than figure out ways to automate it, or maybe have a team take over it and continue that revenue source. Because I'm a big proponent of multiple revenue sources to ride out those highs and lows. I talk about three pillars of income, online, in person and then you're consulting and so forth. Because I've found over time that if you just rely on any one thing you're so susceptible. I mean, think of speakers. Some of your audience might be keynote speakers or wannabe speakers. Like my friend, Ken Davis, that was 90% of his income before the pandemic, and then bam, it's gone. And so being diversified. And then secondly, as you taper those things down and, and put more margin in your business and life, cuz you do lose passion on some things. Like I have that in my consulting space. So I'm really hoping Bizable will really take off. Cause I would love nothing more than to do full time going around and spending time with people like Shannon and Mike Kim and just hanging out and doing documentaries. I mean, that'd be like the perfect life for me and I could tie all that down. But I'm not gonna kill that until I have something else in place.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. I have pivoted in my business where I'm like, oh, I still have this thing over here, but it just is running itself and I have a team supporting it. And sometimes I waiver. I'm like, do I want to shut that down completely and go all in over here? But it feels almost, again, like making the decision to leave the safe thing, but it's different. I think the thing that I have kind of figured out is, I can always figure out a way, you know? I think that that's a completely different mindset than what I had when I was feeling trapped and this is the only way.

Paul Klein: Right. You can always make more money. It's just whether or not you're gonna enjoy what you're doing. And that's more important. And my friend Dan Miller, who's one of our big people that we're having on Bizable, who's a mentor of mine. Every year, and I'm in his mastermind, he talks about how he trims one third of something to make A) more margin in his life, but also to seek on new challenges and new opportunities. So he'll usually stick to something for three years. And that's what his wife says. You're a three year man, because every three years you have to change. So he hasn't missed a podcast in 15 years. Not once. His newsletter, his podcast and his mastermind. And then I think he has an eagles group. Those are like his pillar things. But other things, his coaching programs, he's mixed up over the years, he'll do something different and adding different things. And so I think for those of you that, in my experience, there's nothing wrong with experimenting with more and you don't have to put all your identity in one thing. I'm just doing this. Build that margin so you can explore. And man, it's just being curious and solving problems and having fun and keeping life and your career exciting so you get up every day jazzed and ready to go because you always have something new to look forward to.

Shannon Mattern: Oh, I love it. I love that there's strategy and reasons behind continuing on to do something that maybe you have outgrown or you no longer feel passionate about. And then also, is there an opportunity cost to continue to do this that I could be doing something different over here. I think it's just important to explore and reflect on that. And I think it's because it's like the end of 2021 when we're talking about this. That's coming up for me. It's like, Ooh, what's happening? What's gonna happen in 2022? What's next? You mentioned, you know, you can always make more money. And one of the big shifts that I have personally gone through, I think, since our last episode and now is just my money mindset like completely different. And thanks in part to you and your Pricing is Positioning podcast and everything you talk about. But, I mean, I was very scarcity minded. Money can run out. Conserve, conserve. Don't buy my time back. Spend all my time to save money. All of that. And I have completely shifted that mindset. And with that, my revenue has just exploded! So I wanted to ask you what are some of either the shifts that you've had personally, or just kind of like beliefs that you have now that serve you? What does your money mindset look like?

Paul Klein: Oh boy. That's a lot to unpack there.

Shannon Mattern: Loaded question, right?

Paul Klein: Yeah. But I really like to encourage people to not undervalue themselves. I mean, that was my whole premise between my podcast and some of the coaching that I was doing. And I still believe in that. And that's always just been my core thing, because I've always found, especially with women. I know you have a lot of women in your audience and women particularly struggle with that because, you know, I know a lot of women that are engineers, electricians, and they're kind of in a more male dominant thing. And so then when it comes to that whole money mindset, they feel like they're at a disadvantage. But the reality is, you're not. You just have to own it and just don't let anybody, you know, as Eleanor Roosevelt said, "nobody allows you to feel inferior except yourself", you know? And so you've gotta value yourself and lean into your experiences and everything. So that's the biggest thing. And I fluctuate with that sometimes. I get too, uh, cocky, I guess. So I'll send out a proposal. But that's what I love in my consulting business. I bid a lot of jobs, a lot of four and five figure jobs, repetitively, very similar. And so sometimes if I'm really busy, and I have a philosophy that says, 'never say no, price them to no'. And so I'll push the envelope in my industry and I'll get really high, like almost obscenely high. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And I think that's the beauty of things. Try it and believe in yourself. And all that matters Is you. Not what everybody else is. Sometimes people will say, well, in my industry I can't do that. Or, you know, in this particular vertical, that's just not acceptable. Especially some industries, hourly is the only way they bill. I've been with government entities and they say, oh, we have to have your hourly rate. And I go, well, I'm sorry, you can't work with me. And then they're like, no, no, no, we wanna work with you. We'll change the rules. So you just have to have that mindset and just be strong. And I hate to say fake it till you make it. But there is some, I don't wanna say truth to that, but it's just a mindset thing. It's like really being confident, even in the face of, you know, if I don't get this job I'm not gonna be able to pay my mortgage. But you don't wanna have what is called the stench of desperation, you know? Just be confident and say, yes, it's gonna be this. And I'd be happy to work with you, and be confident. I guess that's the biggest takeaway for me, for you.

Shannon Mattern: I feel like it's the difference of where the power lies, right? It's almost like I'm inviting you to work with me when I give you a proposal. And you can either choose to work with me or choose not to work with me based on my price, instead of it being the other way around, like, oh, please hire me. And it's a completely different way of approaching how you work. Like, I'm the expert. I know what I'm doing. Even if I don't feel like an expert, I am committed to figuring this out with you. And we're gonna make this happen. I'm gonna help you reach your goals. I'm only inviting you to work with me if I think I can help you. Would you like to work with me? These are my terms , and if you don't want to, that's okay. That is your choice.

Paul Klein: Yeah. And that's okay. And right there in that crux, Shannon, you've made that switch to where, you know what? It's business. I'm not offended. You're not offended. It's not a good fit for me. It's not a good fit for you. Move on, you know? And there's nothing wrong with that. And it's empowering when you kind of can take that position because, you know, it's that least interested principle. I mean, it's obviously creating a win-win. You always wanna do that and provide tons of value. But it has to be a good fit. And sometimes your biggest play can be to refer. If your out of their price range and the client clearly thinks your prices are too high, you can say, well, let me refer you to someone else I know that probably could serve you better. That brings you so much more power and credibility. And I've done that several times over the course of my career. And then they've come back to me later once they realize you get what you pay for. I want to go with you now. so, that's a really important point in this whole world of determining your own value and charging for your own services and be independent.

Shannon Mattern: What have you seen in the stories of people who are coming in your documentary in terms of how they really embody or empower that entrepreneur mindset and really kind of taking control of things?

Paul Klein: Yeah. I think the common theme that I see through everybody is, number one, everybody thinks they should have it figured out, but doesn't. And so they start, or they don't wanna start, or they're apprehensive about starting because they wanna have everything figured out. But the reality is you don't figure everything out until you take the steps. It's like, I wanna be on top of that mountain over there, but I just want to, like, be there. They don't realize you have to take 2000 steps to get there. And so, they wanna have that immediate top of the mountain thing real quick. And so most of the entrepreneurs that are sharing stories are like, I tried stuff out, I wasn't ready, I made mistakes. And the second thing is that, and a lot of 'em don't even refer them as mistakes, they learn. They learn and course correct. And so, even though they've had failures or problems when they first started, they didn't look at them as mistakes or catastrophic life failures. And okay, now I gotta get a day job. They just learn from it and move on. And I think that's the biggest thing, don't be afraid to fail. It's not really failing. It's just learning what works and what doesn't. And I know with you, you've made a lot of strides with your online courses and how you market, and you've got advertising going now. And some of the things you would've done earlier probably are much different than what you would do now, knowing what you know,

Shannon Mattern: Oh, yeah! Talk about trial and error with advertising, right? I mean, I have dabbled and dipped my toe into paid ads, probably once a year since I started my business and just really testing and starting and stopping and this and that. And now, however many years into my business, seven, it's crazy, I finally decided this is a strategy I wanna pursue. And guess what? I don't have to be the expert. I'm gonna hire somebody. But that was a very winding, meandering journey to something that's really working well for me. Could I have gotten there faster? Sure. But what's the point of even thinking like that, right?

Paul Klein: Yeah. It's a continuous learning. One of the people that your audience might it really resonate with is...do you have a lot of authors by chance? What's your audience mostly?

Shannon Mattern: We have a lot of people who are potential authors, probably future authors, aspiring authors. Because they wanna kind of like stake their claim in their space, you know?

Paul Klein: Yeah. How about writers? . I don't know if you've ever talked about this or if your audience has heard of this. There's a really neat industry called ghostwriting. And most people think of ghostwriters as somebody who writes a book for Oprah. That's certainly someone who gets a million dollars, and you can get to that level. But one of the people we're profiling is Nick Pavlidis. He was an attorney in New York, had the BMW. Perfect. I mean, 200 or 300 grand a year, but was working 18 hours a day, phone was never off. Finally just had it. Left. Went to a law firm, moved back home to Boston with his wife, cuz it was starting to have an impact on his personal of life. And he said, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm just gonna work Monday through Friday, eight to five for this law firm, for a third of the price, till I figure out what I'm gonna do. And he ran across ghostwriting and he said, I wanna be a ghostwriter. I'm a pretty good writer. So he started doing ghostwriting on the side. And when he first started, I think he charged $1,500 or $500 for his first client. He's up to 90 grand for a project. He only has to take on three or four of those a year. And he also, like you, trains people. Instead of in web design or web content, he does it in ghostwriting. And so there's so many niches like that out there that. And he didn't have it all figured out. You know? Almost parallel with you. You guys are real similar in age and left your corporate around the same time and just took that leap into this virtual internet world and are just killing it. And he has a great story that I think your audience would love.

Shannon Mattern: Oh yeah. I'll link up Bizable TV in the show notes so you guys can go check this out. Because I'm excited to listen to all of these stories and "meet" all of these people that are like, you know, where were you when I was going through this too? You know? I'll be able to resonate with all of them. I love how in all of these stories nobody had it figured out, they were just taking action. Imperfect action. Whatever happens, happens. When I step in the hole, I don't make it mean that I'm stupid or wrong or not cut for this. You know, I think that the biggest difference is that maybe it looks like people like Paul and I have it all figured out and we're doing everything right, and whatever. But we certainly, you know, , step in the holes and make the mistakes. And I think that's what I love about how you're creating this docu-series and really kind of digging into like, I mean, you guys asked me those tough questions about what were some of the low points for you. And you're really trying to tell like the full story and not the 'here's the end results of all of this and look how awesome they're doing now'.

Paul Klein: Instagram post, everything's perfect. Yeah, it's really tying into those emotions back then and, like we did with you, all the guests we're taking them back. So that you, the listener to this podcast, can watch almost like a cinematic documentary. And even if in every episode you can get one takeaway that helps you either in life or your business, then we've achieved our goal. And that's the way we have this five-part framework that we walk each of the guests through. And it kind of starts at the beginning of your journey and all the way to the end where there's hopeful vision for everybody. It might just be an email tweak or a mindset something. Jeff Brown, one of our first guests, talked about the first time he got on a podcast. They were interviewing him. And it was on a subject that he's the only expert in the world on, and his story. They were just interviewing on his story. And he got in the zoom call, just like this, and froze. He told them his dog was barking. He said, Oh the dog just got out. I gotta take a break here. So he turned his zoom call off, went and hyperventilated in the other room and had a panic attack because he was so frozen and scared. And he's a grown man, male man, like myself, you know. I think he was 40 or 50 at the time. And it's like, you know, I can resonate with that. Cause I know how that feels. And I think we all have those moments and then the story of him overcoming that. And now he works with John Lee Dumas. You know John Lee Dumas. , he gets tons of coaching clients. He refers a lot of them to Jeff. And others do that as well. And it's just amazing to see that growth. And I think that's what your listeners can really get from watching those, that inspiration and motivation to keep going, man, keep going!

Shannon Mattern: Yeah, because when I first started, I thought I had to be perfect. I thought I had to be polished. I thought I had to be whatever. I'm still not even anywhere close. I let all that go. I'm not perfect or polished, and I'm still doing awesome. So it's just refreshing and inspiring to see real people being real, succeeding and not being perfect.

Paul Klein: Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Definitely a good motivator. I wish I would've had that too. ,

Shannon Mattern: I know, right? I love how you're creating the thing that you wish you would've had to inspire you on your journey.

Paul Klein: Yeah. It's like like that unmet need. You think of things. But it's a great thing about the free market. You know, we may have three, might be me, you and Kendall that sign up for it and the business model doesn't work or whatever. But I believe in it. And it's like anything. When you have that vision and what's your real purpose. You know, Kendall and I, it's not just to make a bunch of money. We'd love to make just enough money to keep doing it full time and do documentaries and profile more people, and have like a full Netflix library where you could go in there and go, okay, I wanna find a web designer. Oh, here's this Shannon Matterm. I wanna know more about what she does. Or, I wanna know more about speaking and we'll have people that are speakers and stuff. And just real people. And then you can connect with them. All the resources are there. So if you wanna go in deeper with one of them and learn more, join their program, buy their book. We have all that on there and it's just gonna be a great resource, I think.

Shannon Mattern: So let's talk a little bit about the business model. How does Bizable TV work?

Paul Klein: Yeah, great question. So I kind of figured this out as we went. So the first play is to try to launch it and get enough subscribers to fund the development. So we have basically six different apps that have to be developed. So we're launching with three. So the first one is Roku. IOS so you Apple users can get it. You can get it now on Apple iOS. You can go download it at the Apple store right now, and you can even watch some of the free stuff we have on there. And then the other one was Amazon Fire. And so that's the first thing. If we can get enough subscribers just to pay for the development, and then we'll roll out in Q2, Android and so forth. That's the first thing then. And then what we're doing is we're leveraging our guest audience. So as you know, I've made an ask of Shannon. And this is for you folks that are listening, don't be afraid to ask. I always looked up to Shannon and her journey, and I just said, Hey, would you be part of this? And if you are, would you share it with your audience? And here she is having me on her podcast. And I think you'll probably send out some emails, maybe in January, with some additional information. And we'll do each of that with all of our guests. And if each of our guests shares a little bit with all their audiences and we, you know, get some conversions, then that'll get us to point where we can advertise. Once we can advertise, then we start to grow and grow. And then it's just a growth pattern. And what's gonna keep people coming back is, every Thursday a new episode will come out. So every month will be a new entrepreneur. And then every Thursday, a new episode will come out. So there'll be a bank. Shannon's in our launch. So all five of her episodes will be there, along with 10 other people. And then February will be Dan Miller. And then in March, we'll have another entrepreneur. And then if it's real successful, we might do two a week. And then we'll also do live events. Also we'll probably do some training and education. So, we may be able to have a guest come in, like yourself, Shannon, and do a website breakdown on how to set it up for people and have that in the library and just be a great resource for entrepreneurs.

Shannon Mattern: I love all of that. When I got this email from Paul, I was just like, yes! It's an instant Yes! And I think that this is something, you guys hear me talk about this all the time, my number one marketing strategy in my business has been relationship building. And when Paul first reached out to me, I wasn't like, well, how big is his audience? Who are his people? Nothing like that. I was just like, building any relationship with anyone in this space is so important. And I tell you guys this, and then what I hear back is, but I don't have an audience yet. I don't have anything to give in return. And I'm like, you might not right now, but you will in the future. You have expertise, you have value to add to someone else's audience. There is something that you have that you can give to create a relationship that can continue to develop and grow and bear fruit over time. And I love that Bizable TV really is all about that. Like, you're serving me in a huge way by exposing me to all these other people's audiences. And I'm like, how can I support? How can I support? Because we have a similar mission. We have similar values when it comes to business. And it's just a win-win. So, when I stopped trying to stay behind my laptop by myself and figure out how to hack algorithms, my whole business changed. Yeah.

Paul Klein: Yeah. It's all about those relationships. And that's what I'm really leveraging on this launch. And this is like any launch or any new product, any of you listening, put out there. Everybody that we're profiling in Bizable TV has been on my podcast, except for maybe one or two. And it's that relationship that I developed. And then as we expand and get bigger, new relationships will happen. And I get asked to be on podcasts all the time. And that's one of the great things. If you're thinking about podcasting, it opens up a lot of doors. And when I first launched the Pricing and Positioning podcast, it would've been, let's see, I think it was January '19. So, yeah, cuz you were one of the first people I asked. You were one of my first guests, I think, on my podcast. But it, anyway, the first person I had was Blair Enns, and in the pricing world, Bair Enns is right up there with Alan Weis, Ron Baker. He has a book called Pricing Creativity. Just a great resource. And I just emailed him outta the blue. I said, Hey, would you be on my podcast? I had no track record. I had no audience or anything. And I had imposter syndrome, but I just asked him. He said, yeah. And he came on. It was the worst interview. If you go back to it, it's like episode five, it had chickens in the background , he was making fun of me, but he just rolled with it. And, anyway, so it's encouragement to you to make the ask and make the relationships. But don't make the ask out selfishness, you know. I profiled him. I wanted to serve him. Chris Do from The Futur is, I don't know, he's got 300,000 people on his Instagram. A friend of mine introduced me to him through Twitter. I said, Hey, would you come on podcast? He said, yeah, no problem. And I'm like, this guy's huge compared to me. I have nothing, you know, remotely. But most people are gracious, and if you approach it the right way with the right heart and you're not just in it for yourself, then you'll have much more success.

Shannon Mattern: Oh, I love it. And you're giving. It's an ask, but it's a give at the same time, you know? It's something that's gonna help them get more visibility or more credibility or whatever. So, it's always mutually beneficial to develop these relationships. And I mean, I just kind of think about pitches I get in my inbox that are just like straight up clear, no way! Like no's! Because it is clear that it's just all about not what I'm all about. Yeah. So, I could talk, like I always am like, 'I could talk to you forever about all of this stuff. But unfortunately we are coming up on the end of the show. So I just wanna ask you, I think I asked you this. I ask everybody that comes on the show, so I know you've already answered this question. But maybe it's changed in the past two years. I don't know. What belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Paul Klein: Ooh, what belief about myself. I think early in my career... I was an only child and very shy. I was called Darky because I was a little darker than most kids . I had a lot of self-confidence issues. I probably said something totally different on the last episode, but I think even between the last episode to now, just my growth in this kind of personal brand space or internet space. Much different than my consulting space, very corporate, stale, you know. Here it's a little more open, a little more honest and so forth. But I think just having that self-confidence. I didn't discover it really until probably my mid to late forties even, you know? My thirties, I was still pretty just kind of not confident in myself. I was confident in my abilities in certain situations. And like you, behind a computer, in certain rooms I was good. But then you get me out on a stage or in front of other people and I pull back and hold back. But the reality is, I probably knew more than most people in the room, but just didn't believe in myself. So believing in yourself, I think that's huge. Mindset is huge in this and getting outta your own way and really believing in yourself. You can do this and you can achieve whatever you want. You just gotta change that mindset.

Shannon Mattern: So good. And I think that's why everyone is going to love Bizable TV and all of the stories that Paul and Kendall are bringing you on the channel because you are going to probably have more mindset shifts than you ever imagined that you wanted or needed by listening to all these stories. So can you tell everyone where can we go to learn more about Bizable TV, subscribe to Bizable.tv, everything all about Bizable TV?

Paul Klein: Yeah. The best place to go.... So, Apple and Roku don't get their cut. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that, but is just go to our webpage. You can sign up on our webpage and that's also where you can put a discount code, which we'll be releasing that pretty soon for when you wanna sign up. But right now you can get free access. It's called Insider's Access. You'll get email notifications. So just go to Bizabletv.com and you can click on the Watch Now button and just sign up for the free access. And then you'll be in the loop. And then once we launch, we'll have launch discounts we're gonna give Shannon a special discount code too. But you wanna sign up on the webpage, because the iOS app, the Roku and the Amazon apps don't allow for discount or coupon codes. And it's just one of those quirky things. But the good news is once you have your login and your password, it'll work across all platforms. So if you're flying and you want to download the app on your phone and download four or five episodes, you can do that while you fly and watch 'em. Then when you get back to the house and you're ready to watch on your big screen TV on Roku, you log in with the same email and password. So it's really about On Demand content designed for entrepreneurs when you want it, where you want it, and as much as you want and so forth. So Bizabletv.com and we'd love to have you join the entrepreneurship revolution and great resignation.

Shannon Mattern: Ah, so good. I will link all of that stuff up in the show notes. shannonmattern.com/373. My coupon code will be there. So if you're listening to this later on after launch, you'll be able to get the link to Bizable and the coupon code and all of the things. Paul, thank you so, so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Paul Klein: Oh, thank you, Shannon. I really love what you're doing. Keep up the great work. I'm so glad we became friends in this and captured your story. So thank you so much.