So, when I first started to bring guests onto Pep Talks for Side Hustlers, I had to be the one to hustle and invite people onto the show.
It all started with me inviting a few people that had spoken at a conference that I’d also spoken at, and then I got a little more strategic and started to invite people who had the audience that I wanted to get in front of, and then I must have reached some magical tipping point in the podcasting world, because people started pitching me to be a guest on the show.
And I was like “Wait, what? You want to talk to me on my little old show? Okay, let’s do it!” So I started saying yes to conversations with all these strangers, which was a little scary at first, I’m not gonna lie.
But it’s been the most transformational thing for me because I get to pick the brains of people who ARE where I want to be.
And it’s a great opportunity for my guests to get in front of a whole new set of people for the price of a fun, one-hour conversation with me.
And then you get the benefit of learning from our conversation!
It’s a total win-win-win.
So I still invite people that I want to build relationships with onto the show, but I also get a TON of pitches… and some are amazing that make me really excited to say yes… and others are not so amazing that make me definitely say no.
So if getting in front of an audience of hundreds or even thousands of your ideal client for the price of a conversation sounds appealing to you, and you want to know what makes a podcast host like me say yes to your pitch in a heartbeat (or tell you no, I don’t think you’re a good fit for my show), then today’s episode is for you.
My guest today is Kelly Glover of The Talent Squad, and she specializes in booking podcast tours for entrepreneurs. Kelly is here today to teach you how you can use podcast guesting as a vehicle to strengthen your personal brand and gain credibility, authority, and influence – and how you can get podcast hosts to say YES to your pitch.
Today we’re talking about:
- Kelly’s journey to build a podcast booking agency.
- The benefits of being a podcast guest
- Two secrets of pitching podcasts
- What to do after the podcast airs.
- Why downloads aren’t a true indicator of success for a podcast
- How to know when it’s time to move from pitching yourself to hiring an agency to pitch you.
- Kelly’s best advice for you if you’re struggling to grow their side hustle.
- The one belief Kelly had to change about herself to get where she is today.
My favorite quotes from Kelly:
- “Always bring your best and be your real self.”
- “There's no copy-and-paste pitches that will ever work.”
- “Another benefit of podcasting is the more you do them, the more you understand your own messaging.”
- “Everyone is their own personal brand. No one is you, so don't let that stop you. Don't put up any roadblocks, don't let it stop you. Just get started.”
Shannon Mattern: Kelly, thank you so much for being here on pep talks for side hustlers. Can you share a little bit more with our listeners about you and what you do? Yes. Thank you Shannon. So I am Kelly Glover from the talent squad and we are a podcast guest booking agency. So we get entrepreneurs booked on to us.
Kelly Glover: Um, I've been in media and entertainment for about 20 years, was a radio announcer, ended up in podcasting, used to work in talent management and talent agency. And now we have, um, been doing this for quite a few years. So we've pitched thousands of shows and the industry is changing a lot. So we've done all the hard work. So I've got the good tips from you that I've learned from the last few years. So you don't have to go through those years of struggling.
Shannon Mattern: So what compelled you to like go out on your own and, and start the talent squad?
Kelly Glover: Um, I had a Jerry McGuire moment and actually sometimes you don't realize this at the moment. It's only in retrospect. So it took me a few years to realize that. So I was working for another agency, I was producing shows and the contracts had come to an end. And then I thought, I'm sick of this, like I want to do this, but I don't want to be at the behest of someone else. So I started my own agency. So I had one client, one staff member started from nothing. No idea about the business side. Just knew the practical side of I knew how to do the thing. And, and over the last few years have learned the business side very quickly, um, along with the practitioner side and I could not have loved it anymore. And if I'd have known what I was going through, I don't think I would have done it so flippantly. But having, but not having that knowledge actually benefited me.
Shannon Mattern: I love that you said that you, you went for it knowing that you're like an expert practitioner. Well he didn't say the word expert, but I'm using that word after looking at all the things that you've done, um, that you're, that you had the practitioner's side down, you had that confidence. Um, but yeah, I think a lot of people don't think about the business side and if they do think about it too much, it might prevent them from actually going after, after their dream. Right? Yeah. You don't,
Kelly Glover: no. What? You don't know, you know how to do the thing. And in my case that thing was booking podcasts. I knew how to do my expertise. Like you said. Yeah. But I didn't know about the accounting part about the managing other people part about all the, all the business and systems and processes and the getting clients and the sales and the onboarding. You know what I mean? So big lessons, but dissatisfied. I've never felt so satisfied in my life as I have with my business.
Shannon Mattern: I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think those are all the things too. I had no clue what I was walking into when it came to all the things that you just mentioned, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. The freedom and the flexibility and just the independence that I have as, as a solo business owner is worth any kind of headache on the bookkeeping side times a million.
Kelly Glover: Absolutely. So, yeah, absolutely know what I doing on one side on the other. Nothing idiot, clueless dog. I think that's how I feel a lot of the time too. I'm like, am I doing this right? Oh, well I'll find out if I'm not moving on. Like, yeah, the same. Uh, I love it. So you mentioned that, you know, the podcast industry has, has changed, um, recently. What are some of those things that you're seeing that are different now than maybe even, you know, one or two years ago? Yeah, so I first started podcasting in 2007 and back then what I was in radio and it was pulling the radio show off the logger, removing the songs and removing the commercials. That was my first podcast. So that's a long time ago. 2007 I got into podcast, um, guest booking in 2014 and since then there were only a few people in the industry and lots of people have come on board because I think podcasting was looked at a man in his garage recording a podcast under a blanket, two bros talking junk.
Kelly Glover: That's what everyone's thought podcasting was. And it may very well have been that in the beginning, right? Um, but now everyone's getting on board. Like you see big talent agencies in Los Angeles coming to the conferences and all these production companies and a lot of the production companies and now are getting bought by Spotify. So it is gone from amateur to a lot of people coming on to now consolidation and professionalization, but also the deep professionalization. So in the podcast guest booking space, lots of people are coming in and being like, yeah, I can pitch podcasts, but they don't necessarily aren't necessarily doing it the right way. And that goes for other things like editing, like any services related with podcasting because it is a boom. So people are like, gold rush, everyone's coming to the Goldfields. Um, so that's what I've seen and it's going to change again with the business, what I've seen and what the customers want and what people are doing with it.
Kelly Glover: It's all just, it's every year, it's so fast. But again, how fun. How amazing. Because we're in the middle of something that's being invented and changing. Yeah. I mean, when I started my podcast back like not even that long ago, halfway through 2017, 2018, I can't remember now. It seems like it seems like forever ago. Um, you know, I was starting it really as just a way to have, I didn't even have guests, you know, I really just wanted a way to kind of communicate with my existing audience and, and share all share, you know, my journey and things that are going on. And then at some point something happened where I started inviting a few guests on my show and then I don't know what happens, but like then I just started getting pitched left and right. And I don't know if it was like longevity of the show or that I had guests on the show, but something changed
Shannon Mattern: this year where it's like almost overwhelming the number of pitches. I'm ready to see things. Have people on the show. Shannon, I bet your audience and I would love to hear how many pitches are you getting? What, what, what is been the change and what's the volume you're getting now and what, who are you seeing pitch you? Like, give us your insight of what you're getting. Well, so it's so fascinating. I'm getting a lot of, I get a lot of good pitches. Um, and, and I can tell you what I consider to be a good pitch and what I don't consider to be a, yeah, that was my next question. But, um, right now I probably, I could probably have 10 or 12 pitches sitting in my inbox right now that, um, that I'm just, I haven't had a chance to respond to, which is crazy.
Shannon Mattern: Um, I'm booked with guests through August right now, so it's what we're recording this at the end of January. I have a recordings batched and booked through August. Um, which as a, as a podcaster, uh, that seems a little like overwhelming to me cause I'm like, wait, I, I have too many guests booked and what if I want to talk to somebody else and I'm running out of spots and, and all of that. And so it really has ramped up, I would say in the last quarter of 2019 is when it was just probably like five to 10 pitches a week coming, coming through. And, and not to mention, like there are people that like, I want to pitch to come on my show. Right. So I have to save spots for that too. Um, so yeah, it's really interesting the change, the change that happened. Um, and I don't know if it was like, Oh, you're at 200 episodes now you're on some magic list or what the deal is.
Shannon Mattern: Maybe you can shed some insight on that. Yeah. Well I just did a quick calculation cause this all always fascinates me as well. And if you get five pitches a week, that's 260 a year and if you get the 10, that's 520 a weekly show. So that's 10 pitches you're getting for every one person that's going on the show. And I think that's the change that we're talking about. It's not a man under a blanket recording to his mates talking about video games anymore. You now are competing against 500 other people to get that spot. So it's more competitive than you think. Um, and I think people have realized the benefits of podcasting. Like it was, Oh, I want to get a podcast to reach my audience. But now they know the benefits for the guest and what it does for your personal brand and your expert status and you're accessing audiences.
Shannon Mattern: The relationships with hosts, the SEO, like there's all these things. So I think people announcing the benefit of it and they're like, okay, this is legit and it's a publicity tool. And PR agencies are getting involved. But Shannon, when you said you're getting lots of good pictures, what, what is that to you? To me, a pitch is, um, they actually understand who my audience is. Um, so, uh, so they understand, they've listened to the show. They probably maybe read my about page. Um, so they understand who I am and who my audience is. Um, they've tailored the pitch to benefit, to talk all about how whatever they're going to talk about is going to benefit my audience. And maybe a little bit at the end is like, Oh, and here's a little bit about me. It's like, okay, that's great. You know, but I want, I really want to know how more, how you can help my audience.
Shannon Mattern: Um, and you know, for me as someone who's trying to grow my own audience, you know, if you can throw in that you are willing to promote your, your episode to your own audience, wherever your audience is hanging out and, and there is some alignment there with um, with who we serve. That's always going to let go higher for me then. Um, and not to say that if you don't have amazingly valuable information to share with my audience, but you're just starting out and you don't have a big audience yet, podcasts are evergreen, so that's cool. I'm cool with that. But um, yeah, if you have an audience in alignment with mine and I'm like, all right, let's do this.
Kelly Glover: Yeah. So the two big things from that that I absolutely agree with is we call it at the talent squad, flip the pitch. A lot of people will go in saying, Hey Shannon, you've got a great show. Can I come on your show? He's everything about why I'm awesome. No. The answer to that is so what? Who cares? And you're not going to get through. And that is predicated on having an awesome subject line that gets open because you've already said you've got 10 to 12 pitches sitting in that inbox. So to me that says none of those have subject lines that have been irresistible that you've just had to click. They're like, eh, maybe someday. So in order just to get opened, you've got to have that subject line that is amazing. So with the flipping the pitch, it's about the audience first. And like you said, they're just saying a little bit about themselves last.
Kelly Glover: So it's case, what I can do to the audience, and by the way, here's why I'm the person to deliver that. So the secret about pitching podcasts, and this is going to hurt because it hurts me and I ain't about you. It's not even about the host, it's about the audience. There's three people in the relationship, you the host and the audience, and you are delivering your message to the audience. But the host is the gatekeeper that decides that you get to speak to them. So really understanding that he's crucial to pitching podcasts but is the most beneficial thing and fun thing that you can do and podcasting is, I can already tell you're 200 episodes in, we feel this like podcasting is a drug. It's addictive and it is the best. It's, it's a high you sharing stuff that you already know to people that care about it, that are looking for it. What could be better if you love what you do, this is amazing.
Shannon Mattern: Oh absolutely. This is my favorite thing to do. It makes me sad that I don't have more episodes in my, in my roster because I love talking to guests on my show. It is my favorite thing to do. Out of all the things that I do in my week and I put these episodes, like I put my interviews at the end of the day and you know, I'll be like, okay, it's three o'clock I'm getting a little sluggish. I turn on a podcast interview and I am like, my energy is back. I'm like, I'm ready to go. So it's my favorite thing to do in my business. And I think one of the, one of the things that I love about it too is I don't, you know, I don't always know a whole lot about who I'm going to be talking to on the show, but I know that they're going to deliver massive value to my audience. And the fun thing for me is like getting to know them on the interview too. So I think that that's, that's just, that's a really cool, I think I'm like [inaudible]
Kelly Glover: the luckiest person in the world that I get to do this. Yeah. But as a guest, I feel like the luckiest person that I get to speak to you as the host, you know what I mean? That's why podcast guesting is when, when, when the audience means the host wins, the guest wins. You didn't have to go in with the right attitude and be ready to not, Oh, on page 47 of my book, and you'll find that out if you buy my course and fail. It's not about sales. It's not about getting someone to buy the thing the next day. It's actually, and let me tell you a little sacred. It's all about your personal brand. It's not for sales. If you want to sales, that's advertising. That's a Facebook ad where you can reach five year old woman in Athens, Ohio who has a size eight shoe.
Kelly Glover: You know what I mean? This is different. This is about your message. It's about your positioning. It's about how you deliver in podcasts, people can hear your energy, they can hear the words you use, they can hear your knowledge, they know what questions you're asking. You get to hear them for 30 minutes as opposed to seeing an ad with a quote and maybe they'll go to your website. So expedites the know, like and trust factor. Yeah. You'll figure out if you like the person and want to spend more time with them or not. And if not, that's a win as well because you, no one's wasting anyone's time. I don't want to trick you into something. I want you to come and see me. And if you like me, let's go on a second date. I'm not asking you to marry me. Like do we like each other? Yes or no? Okay. Second date. Awesome.
Shannon Mattern: I love it. I love it. I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, one of the things that I love as a podcast host and being like, I still get, you know, inquiries from people, um,
Kelly Glover: who
Shannon Mattern: heard me on a podcast that I was on four years ago, you know, and I love that. Like that's one of the biggest, you know, it's, it brings me so many amazing people. And then the other thing I love is when someone wants someone in my community emails me and says, I'm so glad you had so-and-so on the podcast. I became her client and she's amazing. So glad that like I connected with her through you. Because you know, when, when I bring people on my show, it's kinda like this implicit like, trust that my audience gets because I'm introducing you. It's like if this interview were to go South, like I w I've never had this happen, but it's like if, if I didn't feel comfortable after an interview, like sharing that with my audience, you know, because I'm like, Oh, I don't really trust that person.
Shannon Mattern: I don't, I wouldn't feel comfortable introducing them in real life. You know, when I introduce people to my audience, it's like I'm a very protective, it's like, I'll only do it if I think that, that, you know, I would, I would, you know, facilitate that relationship in real life. So I think that there's this implicit trust built into with a podcast guest and host in their audience that like, this is someone that you should go check out, that you could trust that you know, that won't swindle you or rip you off or whatever. Yeah. Again, to use the dating analogy, it's getting introduced by a friend who knows the person versus swiping on Tinder and going on a date with someone you've never met. That's the difference. And the other thing you said in there, Shannon, was, Mmm, it's not a given. You can be a guest on a podcast and if you do a bad job or if there's no connection, the host does not have to publish that.
Shannon Mattern: So you really have to nail it every step of the way and be yourself and deliver on what you say, you know and who you are. Otherwise it's going to file. So I think that you need to know you're a guest in somebody else's house and it's not, you should never take it for granted. Always bring your best and be your real self. Cause that's what personal brands fail. If you, you can have the best filter on Instagram but, and say all the right things, but if that's not the real you, it's never going to work longterm. Yeah. I think my favorite conversations are the ones where you know that the person is being real. It's like they have talking points. Sure you're coming prepared. But you know, you're also having, I love having conversations with real people about, you know, wherever the conversation may go.
Shannon Mattern: And you know, I think that that's, that's um, that is exactly what you said. It's like show up and be real, be your true self. And it just makes for, you know, an amazing interview and a great, and I think a great listening experience too. So it's just, it really is just one of my favorite things to do. If all I could do was podcasting, I probably would do it. Yeah. And as a guest with podcasts instead of on a blog or other media, well this, this room for everything. I've got a blog, I'm on Facebook, I'm on all the things. I love all of them. But what I'm saying is that in podcasts you can speak directly to the audience and cater your audit, your message specifically to them to help them in the best way that you can, like your audience or side hustle is, I get that. So we've podcast interviews.
Kelly Glover: You can do that after your day job or if you're a mom, you might have to do it at night. And so podcasts fit into that. And that's a message you can send where if you're a business person and you're doing it for business, then maybe you need to, and Shannon's already, I'm going to tell you a little green room thing. Oh my God, starting the door in her office and doing a podcast interview while she's on the clock at work. So there's different, there's no one way to do it, but also knowing the audience and catering to the audience. Because if you're on a budget and you're just starting out and you slide hustling and that's not your full time gig, you may want to book yourself or have a VA do it. You may not be in the position to hire an agency like the talent squad, but it doesn't mean you won't one day.
Kelly Glover: So, and the worst thing is when people are like, yes, I have the solution, I am the solution and you've got to pay me all this money. No, there's lots of different ways to be a guest on podcasts. The main thing is to do it the right way so you don't ruin your brand by pitching the wrong shows at the wrong time and damaging yourself with the way that you pitch. So let's talk about that a little more for, for someone that is just, just getting started or you know, maybe they're a little bit, you know, a couple of years and, and they've been doing like the traditional online marketing ways of building their audience, you know, posting on Pinterest and SEO and all the things and, and they're ready to, um, you know, kind of level up. Cause I do think podcasting is a level up. I think it takes a lot more intentional effort and action than some of the other passive ways of, of marketing.
Kelly Glover: Like, you know, blogging and search engine optimization, everything they're ready to level up and really get in front of their ideal audience. How can they get started? So the first thing, so people think, Oh, I want to pitch podcasts. Great, I need to pitch them. But to me that's about step five. You've got to go all the way back to the beginning. The first thing you need to do is an online audit. So how am I showing up? That's your website. That's your all your copy, your taglines, you know all the words you have across all your websites, your Facebook, your Instagram, your LinkedIn, like you need to look at yourself like a producer would be looking at you before you pitch a podcast. So that's having your messaging, right? Um, then you also need to have your assets. So that's a one sheet and your online press kit.
Kelly Glover: So if your online press kit, that's a bio that's having your head shots. If you have done some interviews, put your previous interviews in there, that's having links to all your socials because you might have your personal like Kelly glover.com the town's squad.com. Then you might some, a lot of people have a lot of stuff going on, right? So as a producer or host, don't make me go on a wild goose chase looking up 12 things cause I'm going to look at one thing and if you don't have it ready and it looks wrong, we're moving onto the next thing. So it's assessing what you've already got going in and making sure you've got it correct. Um, and then getting your assets in line for that. And then you've got all that. Okay, great. Let's get a pitch list together. So that's looking for shows and then that's a process onto itself, which is source, vetting and pitching shows.
Kelly Glover: And when you've found a show that you like, then you need to, it's a two way betting process. So do I want to go on this show? Is this show good enough for me? Yes. Okay, but am I good enough for this show? That's where you really need to be self aware because you may want to go on the Tim Ferriss show, but if Oprah and Gary Vaynerchuk were the last two people on that show, you may not be at that level. And pitching them is going to show that you're not self-aware and then it actually damages your brand. So your personal brand is everything, whether you have just made decisions to do it or not, you have a personal brand and that's being made for you. Um, so that is pretty much the pitching process, but also following up. So pitching once and so with you, you've got those 10 people in your inbox right now.
Kelly Glover: I don't know how long they've been in there and I don't know if there's been a followup, but for me at the talent, Scott, as a professional booking agency, there would be a followup in there within days we're not, you don't just pitch once and get the pitch because look at all the work that's gone into this before. You have had to listen to the episode. You've had to customize the pitch. You've had to come up with the subject line. There's not copy and paste pictures that will ever work. Dear host, listen to insert random episode, love the show. Here's why I'm awesome fail. So you really have to customize. And it's also looking at the back catalog of episodes. So here's Shannon's. So, Oh, she had Barbara on three episodes ago. Oh damn it. Barbara speaks about what I speak about. Okay, well then that shows that she is interested.
Kelly Glover: So I'm in the right ballpark. What can I offer the audience that that person didn't say? Where's the white space so I can build on what's already been. Mmm. Content has already been put out there. So it's all, can you pitch podcasts? Yes. Can you get on podcasts? Yes, but it's a lot of work to do it. So you also need to have tracking grids in place so you can see where you're going and that will help you monitor your pitch rate because like you said, you're getting pitched 500 times a year. So that's not an automatic yes to just because you send one. So you need to say, okay well I'm sending 10 emails, 20 emails that whatever it is to get one interview and that will inform how many interviews you're going to book. Yeah. It's, I love a couple of things that you said in there.
Kelly Glover: One is, you know, when you look at someone else's show and you see that someone else has been on there that does the same thing that you do, like don't shy away from that and think that you know, Oh well that's already been done. It's like every, there are so people out there that do similar things, but like you said, how can you bring your own voice? How can you bring a different angle to it? How can you, um, just add something different or new to the conversation because you know, one, it's probably going to be several episodes before we're talking about your topic again, you know, if she was on three times ago. But I just, I always, I always get this question, um, from people in my community, it's like is the, isn't the market saturated everybody else's already out there doing what I'm doing?
Kelly Glover: And it's like, you know, to your point earlier, like podcasting is the best way to like separate yourself out from what everybody is doing because you get to show up and be yourself for an hour, you know? Yeah. And I think the question is as well, when we're going back to the audit step one is who are you talking to and what do you want them to do as a result of hearing you on a podcast? If the answer is I want them to buy the book the next day, you may want to think of another paid targeting strategy because this is about personal branding. And then just getting the interview isn't the end. It's, you've got to get your talking points, you've got to get your sound bites, you've got to make sure you've got your call to action examples, stories, case studies. So that's why you're like, how do you get on podcasts?
Kelly Glover: Yeah, how do you get on podcasts? But it's all these strategies surrounding it. That is what's going to make it successful for you and the host. Yeah. So let's talk more about that because it is like getting the yes is really the big win, but then to like leverage it and make it work for you beyond just the interview I think is really like the, the, the magic of being on someone's podcasts. So can you share a little bit more about what people should consider, you know, after, you know, when they're preparing for the interview? Um, what things to do? Yeah, I think, well at the talent squad we say winging it is a waste. And I know that's an unpopular opinion sometimes, but if you just show up without having your talking points, your soundbites, your call to actions and everything prepared, then it's just going to be a nice chat that doesn't benefit the host, the audience or you.
Kelly Glover: So you really need to be intentional and well-planned. Now that doesn't mean reading a script or sounding like a robot. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not reading a script any part of this interview, but you better believe that I've gone through and think, okay, what do people want to know? What do I know? What a frequently asked questions so I can move to any point and really give good information and action steps. So having that planned out before is great. Also with podcasts, it's really good for introverts because if people are terrified at looking at a room full of eyes, staring, staring back at them like 500 people, and forget what you're doing on a podcast, it's one to one. And you can also have your word doc open next to you if you do need those little cheat notes to get started. So I would always recommend in having those if you're a little bit worried and that way you will always nail your talking points.
Kelly Glover: The other thing is to stay on message. Again, you're not a politician, you're not, I'm going to sound like a robot, but it's so easy to get excited and bond with someone and start talking about Labradoodles or something like that. That's, that's off topic, which I haven't spoken about. Labradoodles add his love them by the way. Um, so it's making sure that you stay in your lane and stay on message while still having the freedom to show your personality, show your expertise and talk about other things. So a lot of this is easier said than done. So practice in private before you go public, you can talk, you can open up any app on your computer and just have a little talk to yourself and practice delivering your messaging. Cause another benefit of podcasting is the more you do them, the more you understand your own messaging.
Kelly Glover: The better you get at delivering them. And every podcast you do interview is preparing you for the next thing. So preparation, it's a long winded way of saying preparation, but you've got to prepare in a number of ways to nail it. I love it. So I want to ask you about downloads because I know it's something that people, you know, I don't, I don't think you can find out how many downloads a show has had, but you know, I've had people ask me like, you know, how many downloads are you getting to come on the show? Okay. Yeah. Shannon, do you mind if we just go into that a bit? Can you tell? Yeah, absolutely. So they've pitched, do they pitch you? Hey, I want to come on your show. How many downloads is it of that? What did I ask you? How many downloads I want?
Kelly Glover: I how many downloads? Just show. I want to pitch you. Like which way does it go? It was, um, I want to come on your show. How many downloads file? Yeah. I was just like, Hey, I want to come to your house for dinner. By the way, what food have you got in the fridge? So I can decide that what you'll cook me, again, it's the potty analogy. You'll ask them to come to somebody's party. You don't ask what the menu is. You should be lucky to even get in the door to that awesome party in the first place. So with regards to downloads your rights, it is not public. I'm sure it will work towards that in some capacity one day. But we're not there yet. Right? So many platforms that only people that know their downloads are the podcast host and all those analytics are in the back end of their hosting, which would be something like Libsyn that is the most common one.
Kelly Glover: And they have great analytics and even those analytics are shorter, improve over time. So I come from a commercial radio background where it's a rated market and theirs is based on a number of things, demographic time spent listening, all these things. So with podcasts and you know what, you can ask a host what their downloads are and you could have said formula in an episode. I can't prove that. Right? So in what you, you know what I mean? So it's up to the host if they're going to reveal that at all. The other thing about downloads is it's not necessarily a true indicator cause I can have, I can be a subscriber to a show and it can download that episode and I'll never listen to it. And also there's listens, there's downloads often it's for however many seconds. So someone could, again, that's not a true indication either because what if I listened to it for 10 seconds and didn't live listen to the full episode.
Kelly Glover: And it doesn't also tell you how long someone's listening to the episode. So I don't think downloads are, I don't think it's a true indicator. I think it's more about who's listening to the, like 86% of podcast listeners listen to all or most of the episode. That's an Edison stat. So what it's showing is the people that are listening listen for a really long time and that's what you want as opposed to more people listening for 10 seconds or more people downloading and never listening. And I know people want the biggest audience. They all want that Vaynerchuk for millions of downloads. But I would rather go on a show that if I'm an accountant speaking to dentists, and it's a dental podcast for 500 people, and again, it goes back to would you travel to Athens, Ohio? By the way, that's where I went to university.
Kelly Glover: It's always my go to example, a high university, Columbus, I'm in Columbus, Ohio. So Buckeye, let's say you're a Arab, not Bobcat, huh? Yeah, I'm a Bobcat. But you're legit. And everyone always asks, Oh, Buckeye. I'm like, no, the other one anywhere. I love a high university. Um, so I think that it goes back to thinking about, would you fly to Columbus, Ohio to get in a room of 500 people to speak to them as a speaker? The answer is yes. People would do that in a second, but as soon as they hear a podcast has 500 a thousand, 2000 listeners, they're like, eh, not big enough. I'll only go for a million. Well, that's like saying, yeah, I'll only marry Brad Pitt. No one else is good enough. Good luck. Again, good luck with that. You know what I mean? So it's just a bitter, it's just a bit of real talk and expectations because if you change your mindset on that and downloads an audience, it will change your life. And don't forget the host. The host can be the most beneficial relationship because if your goal is getting clients or business or whatever, well how much is your service? If your service is $1,000 or up and you get one client that's way better than having millions of listeners who aren't coming to you. Yeah. So it's framing the mindset. Yeah. I could not, I couldn't agree more. And I had, I had an experience as a podcast guest that has been like, and uh, like just the blossoming of a really great relationship.
Shannon Mattern: I was on a podcast called side hustle school, um, with Chris Guillebeau who I didn't know who, who he was at the time. He's a little bit not realized though. He had a huge audience or anything. He was just starting this podcast. So I like caught something online, submitted my story. I was on that podcast and then that turned into them reaching out. And saying, Hey, we want to feature, we want to hear more of your story, we want to put you in the book called side hustle. And so it was featured in that book and then it turned into so many other opportunities. And now he and I have this great relationship and you know, that has been, that's brought me, um, you know, that it literally took me, you know, an hour of my day to have a conversation with his assistant as they crafted this episode. I wasn't even on the episode, it was just him reading my story that took an hour out of my day. And that has brought me so much, uh, just such a huge, um, you know, an audience of people who, who like, who listened to my show, who have become my best customers, literally because I took the opportunity to like give an hour of my time to this other podcast to share my story that would be a value to their audience. And it's just come back to me in a million ways. And I, and it was a brand new show at that time. Like it didn't even have an audience.
Kelly Glover: Yeah. So there's a number of great things that you've said in that Shannon, which is a tie in networking with the host. Don't discount that. It's not about millions of people listening. That can be more valuable. It's also a warm intro as well. And the other thing is you're not just having a relationship with the host and the audience. You've also now now opened the door to the host's personal network of clients like Chris, he's got clients, he's got his own network of people. So now that you've been introduced to him, you can be introduced to them. So there's two relationships. There's the podcast audience, there's his client's audience, his, sorry, his clients, and then there's his personal network as well. So that's huge. That's worth getting on a podcast for. And don't forget that episode that you're talking about years ago, that's still available. People will still be finding you from that.
Kelly Glover: And that's the other thing he said early on, people will be like, Oh, that podcast only has X amount of episodes. Dude, that's the time you want to get in because if you want to get on Chris's podcast now, it's much harder than it was back then. And if you get in early on podcasts, you've got a relationship with the host to guess what, come back again to talk about something else because you've already had that relationship with them. So when it is time and you've got something launched, they're going to want to support you because they love you and you were really great to them when they were starting out. I love it. I
Shannon Mattern: love it. And I, you know, I think the thing that is really coming out of all of this is like, it's about building the relationship first and it's about, you know, it's about, um, just building that trust with the host and, and um, over delivering because you never know what that's going to turn into beyond that, that initial podcast episode.
Kelly Glover: Yeah. And it's about personal brand as well because your positioning is all about differentiation. If you're generic not going to work, messaging, it's got to be clear. If it's not, it's going to be confusing. People are going to turn off. It's also the purpose. Like what's your why? I know that Simon Sineck, um, are you resonating if you're not, again, disconnected. So it's about getting all those things in an authentic way. Otherwise no one's going to trust you. They're going to think you completely fake. So it's about authenticity, about resonating, about being clear, about you being different and memorable. And then that's your visibility and also the consistency of delivering the message and consistency on podcasts. So you could do this and go on one podcast. Okay, well how people gonna find you if you're not doing it consistently. And if they see you on Chris's podcast and another podcast and they're like, Oh yeah, that's Shannon. Oh I saw her there. Oh I saw her there. Oh I saw her there. It's all those little moments of visibility that come together. Wow. Shannon's everywhere. She must be really important cause everyone's speaking to her.
Shannon Mattern: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think the same way about people who I see all over my favorite podcasts. I'm like, wow, that's, that's amazing that they're like, they're everywhere. How are they doing that? So I want to ask you, when is someone who's been, you know, DIY buying their podcast strategy? When are they ready to move towards working with someone like the talent squad?
Kelly Glover: So I would say when you're at the point where you know how long it takes and it's going to be cheaper for you to outsource than putting your time into it, that's where it comes. Especially for a side hustler. If you, it's about, it's about budget and time. Yeah. Because you know that as a podcast agency, we've done this for years. We have the existing relationships because that's what takes the time to build things up. And we already have a network of, Oh yeah, there's Shannon, she'd be great for this show. Oh, I'll just send this pitch over to so-and-so that already know us. They're going to open the email because they already know us. Um, so I think that it's the tipping point of when it's going to be more beneficial and cheaper for you to outsource them, put your time into it and your time is better spent elsewhere.
Shannon Mattern: Yeah, I think I couldn't agree more. And I also just feel like, you know when, when you're just starting out, I think people, this is, I just talked to, I talked to a lot of Facebook ads experts on this show and I love talking to them about, you know, when is it time to invest in Facebook? And they're like, Oh, it's way later on in your business than what a lot of people think. A lot of people right out of the gate who are brand new want to start with paid advertising and that's not the time. It's like you need to validate your offers and all this thing, all that, this kind of stuff. But I feel like with something like getting on podcasts, that's not just lighting your money on fire, like it could potentially be with Facebook ads when you're not ready with, with your sales funnel. It seems like a smart place to invest if you're ready to invest with, you know, with [inaudible] building your brand and getting out there and building relationships and networking.
Kelly Glover: Yeah, it's all, yeah, so it's about, because as we've said, it's about the finding the shows, sourcing the show. Then the show, pitching the show, following up with the show, and then you do the interview. So it's all that busy work upfront, tracking the pitchers, there's work that goes in. So how much time does that take? The other thing is if you're doing it yourself, you're starting from zero and you may be able to get on other people's shows that you already know in your network. Awesome. But that's not volume and that's not longevity. So to me that's a bit like a personal trainer versus doing it yourself. Am I going to show up at the gym to do a five K twice a week? Maybe more likely not. But if I have to go and meet Jillian at the gym at 6:00 AM on a Tuesday, I'm going to do it.
Kelly Glover: So the podcasting agency, they guarantee that you'll get the booking. So you just have to, hi the pay your monthly bill and then guess what podcasts are going to show up and all you have to do is schedule them and show up. The other thing, the benefit of hiring an agency is as you can tell, I'm pretty big on strategy and using things in the right way. So it's looking at you individually and going, okay, what's your messaging? What's your platform? What's your like? I'm going to ask you the hard questions. What's the personal branding? Is everything in place? Because as an agent, I can't in good faith pitch you out to the market if all your ducks aren't in the row. So hiring a podcast agency is going to force you a little bit or give you jobs to do to get that up to date before we can even pitch you. Because my roster of people, they've all got online press kits, they've all got awesome one sheets. Their headshots are amazing. So having an agency represent you also gives you a bit of a, you're being represented. Oprah doesn't ask to go on the today show. My agent asked her to go on the today show. But again, I realize that it's budget and if you can't do that, then pitch yourself in the beginning until you can get to that point and then just outsource it.
Shannon Mattern: Such, such good advice. I, I really appreciate you sharing all that stuff with our listeners cause I know a lot of them are new, but a lot of them, you know, a lot of them are um, you know, kind of ready to take it to the next level. So knowing exactly what they need to do to, to get ready for that is, um, you know, it's definitely going to give
Kelly Glover: them an edge. And Shannon, the other thing that we do with our clients, and if you work individually, you should do this too. It's the after the interview because you've, so you've, you've done the upfront, you've found the show, you've picked the show, you've got on the show, you've nailed the interview. Then the next step is, what if no one listens to the interview? What happens then? So it's your responsibility. Um, well the host will never make you sign a contract or doesn't usually make you sign a contract, but it's a, it's a understood responsibility that you then need to promote that show to your audience. You need to put it into your, um, social cues so it continually goes out. You need to tag the host, you need to tag, do all the hashtags. So then it's promoting the show and then you can leverage it and then you can make content out of that show for yourself.
Kelly Glover: So you can, if I've said something genius in this podcast that I can remember, I can pull that quote, stick it on a photo, push it out over Instagram and make sure there's a link back to you and your show. So I'm still promoting your show, but then I've just made a piece of content for myself. Well, maybe you've said something genius or some cool stats, which you've had, and I can pull that and say, you know what I found, I spoke to Shannon and these are the stats that she said. And then that's a piece of content and all that is come from a podcast interview. Not to mention if you pulled the transcript, um Oh get it transcribed. So there's so much that you can do after the interview. Like podcasts are the best you guys, they are the most amazing thing ever.
Kelly Glover: So it's about the purpose leveraging and promotion as well after the interview. I love it. And, and if you are listening to this and you have your own podcast, like I Le I love to make it so easy for my guests to share. Like I love to give them a list of all of the bullet points. I love to give them a list of the quotes that we pulled out because the easier I can make it for my guests to share on their end and you know, I'm sharing on my end, like we both get visibility, like we both grow and it's just, it's just a win-win strategy for both of us. Yeah. I have an what I love is when hosts send me the little videos of the 32nd trailers cause people love those and then they're the best ones. Um, yeah, so you just put it into your content queue.
Kelly Glover: So I do that when they come out and I don't have to worry about them. I'll do a number of different variations and there'll be going out forever. So this interview, all the promo for that will continue to go out for years and you know some genius computer algorithm where I plug it into, we'll figure out when it goes out and I don't even have to do it. Yeah, absolutely. You have given so much amazing advice, actionable strategies and tips today. Do you have anything else that you want to share with our listeners before we wrap up? Just do it. If you think podcasting is for you, just look at all those ducks, get them in a row and just go out there and do it. Because now is the time. Yesterday is the time to get yourself on podcasts. To be perfectly honest. It's only going to get more people coming in.
Kelly Glover: And your everyone is their own personal brand. No one is you so don't let that stop you. Don't put up any roadblocks, don't let it stop you. Just get started. That is a perfect place for us to wrap up our interview. Can you share with everyone where we can connect with you, where we can learn more about the talent squad and all the amazing things that you guys are doing over there to help your clients get visibility yet come to the talent squad.com and in there I've got a ton of really simple blog posts. As you can tell, I'm all about actionable basic content so the headlines are pretty clear. Just go in and I have like one page on each thing if you wanted to dive down into individual things and that's where you can get all the content and when you're ready to outsource, come and have a chat with me until then, just get started if that's DIY ING, but a lot of the resources you'll need email@example.com awesome. Well thank you so much for being here. I really enjoyed this and I will link up everything that we talked about in the show notes for you guys. So go check that out and start pitching yourselves.
Kelly Glover: Thanks Shannon. It's been an absolute pleasure. I think you're amazing and such a good host. Thank you so much.
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Kelly Glover specializes in booking podcast tours for entrepreneurs and authors. She started podcasting in 2007 and has an 18-year track record working in media and talent management. She hosted her own syndicated radio show, worked as a talent agent, celebrity interviewer, and has produced award-winning podcasts. Kelly is the founder of The Talent Squad and is here to teach the benefits of the podcast guesting strategy, and how you can not only get ready to pitch and get booked but also how to actually ace your interview.