Ep. 313: Finding a Mentor with Kelsey Chapman

Asking for help is something that does NOT come naturally to me. I like to blaze my own trail, and I don’t like to be slowed down. I always hated group projects in high school because I wanted to do the work on my (super-fast) timeline and on my own terms.

So it’s no surprise that when I started my business, it didn’t even occur to me to ask for help.

My method was figuring it out for myself, trial and error, and banging my head against the wall trying to figure things out because I didn’t have anyone that had been in my shoes before able to show me the way.

Now, mentorship means everything to me as a business owner. I finally figured out that I can only go so far by myself, and that going it alone actually slowed me down! Fascinating!

If you want to reach success faster, build a community of people around you that have been where you’ve been before. 

Not only can you find a mentor for anything you want to do nowadays, but you can also be a mentor for others as well. This is why my conversation with today’s guest is so special to me!

Kelsey Chapman is an author, community builder, online educator, host of The Radiant Podcast. After a few years of fumbling her way through post-grad life, Kelsey realized that her entrepreneurial itch wasn’t going away. She came home, got to work, and turned a part-time blog and side-hustle into a multi-six-figure business in just 2 YEARS!

Today, Kelsey leads an audience of 100k followers, hosts The Radiant Podcast, empowers and equips women through her online mentorship program, and is about to release her book, What They Taught Me, on February 9th!

If you’re ready to learn about the beauty of mentorship, let’s get right into it!

Kelsey and I talk about:

  • Kelsey’s journey to becoming a writer.
  • Why it’s worth taking the time to build an audience.
  • How to find a mentor.
  • Why instead of going at it alone you should let people in.
  • Kelsey’s advice for someone who is struggling to get traction in visibility in their side hustle.
  • The belief Kelsey had to change about herself to get where she is today.

My favorite quotes from Kelsey:

  • “No matter what you're doing whether it's course creation, building any sort of service-based business, writing, you have to show that there's a proof of concept like that people will buy the concept.”
  • “The character that's built-in slow growth is what sustains you. What helps you steward that dream of yours longterm.”
  • “Just take what you need. Doesn't mean you have to apply every single thing.”
  • “You don't have to be famous to be a mentor. You just need to be a few steps ahead of someone to be willing to share what you know.”

Shannon Mattern: Thank you so much for being here on pep talks for side hustlers. Can you share a little bit more with our audience about you and what you do?

Kelsey Chapman: Yes. So I would call myself a scrappy marketer. Um, I'm a podcaster and author also have a book. What they taught me lessons from women who have helped take my dream to dead or lessons for mentors. What about take my, take my dream to done. Um, and so I've kind of been a Jack of all trades or a Jill of all trades. Um, since I've kind of been in this space, but my, my main goal when I got into this online business world was to write books. I have wanted to be an author since I was a little girl, but I knew if I, you know, didn't have an audience, my books were essentially just my journals. And so I wanted people to buy my books and that was my segue into marketing. And once, once I dove in, I was like, Oh, I was made for this. So I am a marketer by day writer writer by night.

Shannon Mattern: Oh, I love it. That's so awesome. So when you decided to, um, write your first book, what was, what was your life like? Where did you have like a traditional day job at the time? Or, or tell me a little bit about like how, how that came to be.

Kelsey Chapman: Okay. So I actually, I, I'm probably more cautious than most when it comes to kind of anything I launch and do. I'm pretty fearless, but I still want to build the foundation just right before I do it. And so I dove into this online space and started with a blog and I was, well, I'm going to build an audience around my blog because then that can show publishers. I have people who would want to be my reader. They would buy a book. So I got started in 2015 and I started this blog with a friend and we grew it to 40,000 followers on Instagram in a year. And that, you know, translated to traffic also coming up for, to the website. And I kind of just kept writing. I ended up launching an online magazine. I mean, writing has taken so many different iterations for me in a free non-paid format for years.

Kelsey Chapman: And really after the magazine, I ended up closing it after about a year and a half. Um, that was also a dream since I was a little girl, but to admin. Woo. They do not tell you about the advent of running magazine with volunteer writers. So that took it out of me. I mean, after that, I was like, maybe I've just shelved my dream. Like, I don't know if writing's going to come back. Like I have no desire anymore. I've been operating with such little margin and totally in the administrative space, I've left no room for creativity. So I kind of just gave myself a break and was like, well, if it comes back, it comes back. And then I woke up like six months later and it was like, it's time to start writing. So I think that was 2018. I started working on what would be the beginning of a book proposal.

Kelsey Chapman: And I didn't know this, but this might be helpful for your listeners. You don't just turn in, you know, 12 chapters of a book to a publisher. You actually go through the process of basically writing a 37 page marketing plan, finding an agent to then shop that to publishers. And so you want to show this proof of concept like, yes, you're going to include two sample chapters, but by the time your book gets to a publisher, your agent might've helped you change direction a little, you don't want to write the whole book. And they say, Oh, we would have totally preferred to go in a different direction, rewrite it, you know? And so you write, you know, a few chapters and then you basically build a huge marketing proposal around that. It's pretty, it's pretty interesting how business development ish that world is. And so you took, I started on my proposal, um, in January of 2018 and kind of felt like now's the time and someone's going to come into my life to help me do this because I don't know what I'm doing.

Kelsey Chapman: I don't know what you look Google a book proposal, but I didn't know where to start otherwise. And this is also just very true to who I am. Like, I love women investing in women. So if there is someone who will tell me the steps they took to get that, to get there, I will buy them dinner out, buy them coffee, I'll pay for their program. Like you name it, I'm in. And, and then I like to turn around and offer that to the women, a few steps behind me. And so I, um, I dove in, I ended up having a podcast interview with someone that I just had this gut feeling. I should ask her about her process and she can help me turns out she was starting to dive in to coaching people on building their book proposals. It was truly perfect timing.

Kelsey Chapman: She also needed some Instagram growth, which is what I was, was my specialty at the time. And so we were able to mutually serve each other and that's actually worked really well. And finding mentors for me is like, how can I serve them for their time? Um, and they're serving me by just allowing, allowing me to kind of sit at their feet and I hate the phrase, pick their brain, but learn from them while giving them something. So she helped me put my book together to propos. Whoa. She helped me put my book proposal together. And, um, from start to finish book proposal to book deal, it was a year and a half and they, they say book publishing is not for the faint of heart. And for those of us in the online business world who can like ideate something and get it up in a month that does not happen in the traditional publishing world. And if you don't want that, you can certainly self publish and make just as much money. It's just a different process. And so, um, I started working on that in 2018. I was self employed at that time, but I had built all of this marketing know how that's really served me well in the book publishing process. Um, and here we are, it's about to come out and it has been a long road. I mean, it got started in January, 2018. That is

Shannon Mattern: So I love hearing that story that you're like, okay, I have this dream to write a book, but I know that I need to build an audience around that. And so I am going to start really focusing on creating the people who are going to buy this book. I was just having this conversation today with some of my students about how they want to get there, like building online courses, programs, different things, just different, something, something that they're going to ultimately offer. Um, but they don't have an audience to do to offer it to, and they want to start at the end with the thing. And I love how, you know, what you're saying is like there there's like the whole process of building kind of culminates in the dream, right?

Kelsey Chapman: It does. And it can feel slow and grueling and like, am I ever going to get there? But the reality is is if you don't have a hundred thousand dollars to just skyrocket growth overnight on Instagram ads, then you probably have to take the normal slow growth route. I mean, Rome was not built in a day. And so I think no matter what you're doing, um, whether it's course creation, building, you know, any sort of service based business writing, you have to show that there's a proof of concept like that people will buy the concept. And so, I mean, you really can't go wrong with audience building. Could I maybe dove in sooner probably,

Kelsey Chapman: But I like to play it safe and know that when I'm presenting this business idea, which a publisher is essentially your business partner, they're funding it, taking a risk on you and paying you to knowing that they'll recoup the reward. And I think, you know, I don't talk about this often, but I think that's why I got a better deal than some of my friends. I was really pleased with my first book deal. Um, and I worked really hard to show my publisher. Like if you take a risk on me, I've got an audience and I will sell this because this is what I do. Oh my gosh, I love that so much. And also how, you know, you're just like, this is worth taking the time to build, you know, I think there, there are people that are like, Nope, let's cut to the chase.

Shannon Mattern: I've got a budget. I want to spend ads. I want to grow fast, all of that stuff. And I think that's definitely a route. People can go. It's not a route I teach. It's not a route I've gone. Um, but I think there's just so much value in building that relationship with your audience over time, like them growing with you, you growing and like leading them along, along the way. And you know, all of the things that you've learned from having from them, from serving them and, and creating content for them and engaging with them, it's almost makes a better end product than you could have made. Had you not gone on that journey with them.

Kelsey Chapman: 100%, you know, going the slow road has always served me well, it's painful. You know, sometimes it's like, man, am I ever going to get there? It's definitely humbling.

Kelsey Chapman: Especially if you have peers or even more than peers, like best friends who are going way faster than EO, you know, the slow growth in the personal development. I would never take back because for instance, a lot of my best friends did go first in publishing, but they all so allowed me to see into the, behind the curtain. And I learned so much from their process, um, that has been beneficial for my, you know, and so that's been a perfect example of I'm so glad I didn't go first because I actually got to watch and learn from my friends who went first or, you know, one of my mentors always says, which this is not true every single time, but there will be people who take the elevator up and the stairs up in life. Often the people who have to take, who take the elevator up first have to come back down and take the stairs at some point. And I just will never forget that because you do watch fast growth and it is often not sustainable. And the character that's built in slow growth is what sustains you. What helps you steward that dream of yours longterm? Uh, so, so good. So back to the, to the blog that you started and just

Kelsey Chapman: The topics, tell us a little bit about like, what are some of the things that you just love? Love, love to write about Miami. So my vault, my blog has totally evolved and taken different shapes and really, I don't even blog that much anymore or have mostly brought that over to Instagram when I do show up with kind of something longer format to say. But when I got started, I started with a friend. I tend to start most of my business ideas with a friend. It makes me feel safe. I'm not in an alone. Um, so I started this blog with a friend and we have both kind of done some like, um, world traveling, some ministry. We were both newly married. So we're kind of like, let's do a lifestyle blog. It really was not niched out enough for today's world. Um, but we had like marriage Monday and motherhood Monday, neither of us were mom's.

Kelsey Chapman: We had guest posters for those days. I don't know why we thought we should tackle that topic, not being in it. Um, we had like fitness Friday and brought our friend Carolina, but it really did have some traffic and it, it was kind of this local phenomenon and it was, it was fun. And so after about a year, you know, we realized, we thought we were exactly the same. We, you know, we tested the exact same up Myers Briggs and turns out we're probably not exactly the same wish we would have had the Enneagram at that time, because I think my pace just exhausted her. And so we thought we were doing it in a way to steward it, but man, I wish I would have known because if I describe a shoe would be like the writer who wants to sit at her window seal and look out over her farm and her chickens and write slowly as she's inspired.

Kelsey Chapman: And I'm like, if I were to do something I'm working 72 hours straight and I want to do it now. And so we didn't have enough language or personal development know how to understand really what our disconnect was, but it's interesting to look back on. So I got started with her on that blog and it was so fun. And then when she left, she was like, you could just keep it, I want a peaceful life girl. And I just kind of evolved it into the magazine because I always wanted a space for multiple voices. But when I was running the magazine, I stopped writing all together then because all of my creative margin was gone. I was just always chasing people down for articles or trying to get to a word count or finding, you know, pictures, um, that perfectly fit that post. And so, um, those are kind of the first two iterations.

Kelsey Chapman: And then I just really had on my blog for awhile business type of blogs, as I realized, man, I've got a knack for marketing, I'm going to build out my online brand around that, like your marketing mentor. Um, and then when I kind of had that nudge to start writing again with the book, what came out of me was honestly totally unexpected. I didn't expect to write about mentorship first, but when I just started writing, it made sense of like, this has been, I have always looked for women to invest in me in any area of my life, marriage. Um, you know, how to show up in my career friendship, like you name it. I've like if someone's killing it, I want to learn from them. So when I just started writing, that's kind of what came out on paper first. And I was like, Oh, this makes so much sense. So for the past few years, I've really just been focusing on that. And um, I don't blog or even posts on Instagram as much as I'd like to. Cause I also do a lot of marketing for my job so I could put my own stuff on the back burner. But, um, it's fun to put on the writing hat this year and get this kind of out into the world.

Shannon Mattern: Can you tell me what your Enneagram is? A seven really? I was going say, I don't know why I thought you were going to say three, because you said you can just hammer down 72 hours and like get this thing done. I'm a three. Um, so w what's the, what's the characteristic of the seven again,

Kelsey Chapman: We're an enthusiast and we brought threes and sevens can be lookalike numbers. Um, and I am a subtype of a seven. That's a little bit different than your average seven, you know, sevens have the stereotype of like being Peter pan and not wanting to work, but there's a subtype of a seven that will be a workaholic to maintain their freedom. Ah, because if I could just work for myself and do it myself, I will always be in charge of my own life and my own freedom so I can relate so much. Yeah. When I realized that I was like that, that's it?

Shannon Mattern: Oh my gosh. My test came back and I was like an equal three, six, nine. Like I scored like even Stevens in each of those ones. And I was like, that's just weird, but I definitely identify most with

Kelsey Chapman: Three. Totally. Um, I, and, and honestly a three goes to a six and stress and a nine and health. Oh no, no nine and stress six in health. So, you know, you're going to embody those numbers too. That makes total sense.

Shannon Mattern: Well, for anyone listening, that's like, what are they talking about? I will link up in the show notes where you can go and like figure it out. I think it's probably the most freaky personality test I've ever taken where you're reading it. And you're like, okay, that's more me than any other personality test I've ever taken.

Kelsey Chapman: It's really, uh, you know, when I say like, thinking back to that first blog with that partner, I really wish I would've. I wish we would've had the Enneagram because I'm a seven and she's probably a nine, but on Myers-Briggs we are testing exactly the same and my husband's a nine. I people probably meet us and think we're the same. We're not how we arrive. There is just so different. And, um, we might present similarly, but like the way we get there so different. So it's just been very transformative and how I do business friendships, family stuff. It's changed my life in a really meaningful way.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. I, I agree. And you know, I think it's just, if you have an understanding of yourself and how you operate and how you work, then you can figure out how to accomplish your goals in a way that really works with your personality instead of always trying to work against yourself, because maybe your mentor has a totally different style than you. And you're like, why can't I do all the same things that, that person's doing, the way that they're doing that like just drains me. So I want to hear, you know, you're all about mentorship. I kind of want to hear your perspective on finding a mentor. That's a good match for you.

Kelsey Chapman: Oh, this is like a, what I love to talk about off of what you just said too, you know, finding a mentor. I think everyone thinks of it kind of like finding your soulmate. Like I need to find low one. Who's going to change my life and be with me for the next 50 years or, you know, give me like, teach me how to do everything. And we kind of just sit on our hands and wait for the perfect person to walk into our life. And that's pretty unlikely like Michelle Obama, Oprah, Beth Moore, they're not going to be your mentors. You know, they're busy. So your mentors are probably that woman who's already in your life who maybe isn't killing it in every area. Maybe she's a killer wife, but doesn't really pursue her dreams at all. Maybe she's an amazing career woman, but kind of absent parenting, you know, like you can learn from what they're killer and you can also learn from their mistakes and, and apply that to your own life.

Kelsey Chapman: And I think, again, piggybacking off of what you were saying too, before this, if they're a different Enneagram number, you can also synthesize what they're saying and apply it to your own life in your own way. Sometimes I feel like if I let someone have a voice in my life, I should just follow exactly what they say. And over the years I've just realized that's not practical. Like sometimes they're going to have to, they're going to give advice. That's fitting for them and not for me and this old church saying, that's so country of me, but it's to chew the meat and spit out the bones, Kelsey, you know, like, just take what you need. Doesn't mean you have to apply every single thing. I've had mentors, give me bad advice. I've had mentors that I had to, like, this is not working, you know? Um, and so I kind of describe it as dating. Like you've got to try a few hat on, same with therapy. A lot of people do not find the right therapist. The first round you've kinda got a date, have a few friend breakups, a few break ups to find your people. And I think what we normalize that if it just makes it accessible,

Kelsey Chapman: Like looking around at someone who's already in your world, you might work with them. They might be the mom of one of your friends or dad. If you're listening, if a band's listening or you can have a daughter, who's an opposite gender, but someone who's just demonstrating excellence in an area you want to grow. And, um, I often just say, Hey, like, would you like to meet for coffee? I'm really, I see this in you. It can kind of be weird. I've definitely felt like a weirdo asking people to be my mentor, but I'm like, Hey, I see the city. You I'd love to buy you coffee sometimes in a business context, that that more means like paying for their program, especially in our world, right? Like you can't just buy every course creator. You love their stuff, coffee and expect them to hand you the keys to their business, but like pay for their mastermind, pay for their next tier of one on one coaching.

Kelsey Chapman: You know, I've certainly, um, served most of my mentors because they've just been like life mentors. Like what can I do for you? Thank you for investing in me. Can I buy you coffee? Can I come over and help you feel full laundry while we just talk? Or if their business, what's your, what's your, what does this cost? And, and that might feel a little more transactional the business one. But if you find your right people, like my two business mentors, Amber and Anne, yes, they have paid programs. Yes. I'm in ambers mastermind, but the radical generosity with which they both give is so much more beyond a coach. They are true life mentors, mine,

Shannon Mattern: uh, so many things that you said that I want to point out, like one of like just, you know, picking the right person, like picking people who serve that specific need that you have at not like having this one person be everything for you.

Shannon Mattern: Like I think of my best friend. She does not have, like, my business is really important to me. I spend a lot of time on it. I love it. I invest a lot in it. My best friend could not care about business at all. She does not care. But what she is really, really good at is just like helping me, like she models, like just not taking life so seriously to me, you know how to relax, how to just, you know, she's always joking that she's like so lazy. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like you have, like, this house is perfect. Like all these things, but she's just like, Shannon, you just, you just need to chill out. Like, here's how we are going to do this. And I'm going to like, make you come with me and you're going to take off work and you're, we're going to go get a pedicure. And we're just going to talk and have a good time because she sees in me that like, I don't, she sees that. I say that I do this business because I want all this freedom, but then I never take advantage of the freedom that I've created for myself. And she sees that and she calls me out on it. And so she is forcibly mentoring me to take advantage of the life that I've created.

Kelsey Chapman: Yeah. I mean, that is also my struggle. I say, I want freedom. And then I'm a slave to my business. I'm been working on it. But yeah, like those people that come along and just give you this one facet of life, just like, I mean, like for those who are listening, who are married, I think you learn pretty quick. Like your spouse is not gonna feel fill every single need, every single connection point. Like, do I want to talk about star Wars with David for three hours? No, thank you. Please find a friend to go talk about that with, I can hold space for like 20 minutes on a good day for that. But like for your long drawn out conversations, maybe find your person for that. And I, I think the same goes for friendship. The same goes for mentors. Like they're, you might not be nailing it in every area of life, but I really urge people to like, not let that make them mean anything about like their fitness to invest in you. Like you, you really might be. I really believe we can learn something from anyone. Does that mean I let anyone have a voice of authority? My wife, no way, but like, I've definitely had mentors who are really killing it, what area? And I'm like, cool, there's some room to grow there, but that does not discount how they've invested in me and what I've learned.

Shannon Mattern: I love how you approach this because you know, I never, until I was having this conversation with you, I never would have thought of her as like a mentor to me, except for, I think all the time, all the time. I think this, like, I wish I could be like her when it comes to X, I wish I could be like her when it comes to this. And like that kind of like how that goes through my mind all the time. I'm like, why don't I just like pursue that on a deeper level to be like, can you like help hold like help me figure out how to hold accountable to this or whatever.

Kelsey Chapman: And, and I think too, like your mentor in a specific area, doesn't have to be 40 years older than you. They just need to be a few steps ahead of you. Yeah. I mean, just like you and I in online business, we're teaching someone maybe a few steps behind desk, Hey, here's what you need for the next few steps. Here's what you need today. And, and again, I think the same can be applied to mentors in any context, life, business, friendship, faith, um, any of it, just someone, a few steps ahead of you in an area who's willing to share. What's working with them.

Shannon Mattern: I love that. You said just a few steps ahead because for people who are listening to the show who are starting an online business, where they do want to serve people in any kind of capacity coaching, um, you know, anything like that, you are a mentor to those people. But what I see hold them back from really fully stepping into that is the fear that they must be perfect, that they have to like be 7,000 steps ahead of the people that they're serving and have everything like just all buttoned up and I's dotted, T's crossed, can't make a mistake like any of this. And then they just don't don't ever go build the audience.

Kelsey Chapman: Exactly. Yep, exactly. And I think like we all, I, I really challenged people to, one of the big objections I came up in the book is like the peep or, but I came up with and researching for the book is people disqualifying themselves? Well, like I'm not ready. I'm not perfect yet all by a dots. And T's, aren't, aren't crossed the dot all my I's and T's are crossed, you know? And it's like, no, no one is demanding perfection of a mentor. It's just to sh it's just openness and vulnerability and a willingness to pass along what you've learned along the way, because if we're not all in this together, like what are we doing? You know?

Shannon Mattern: Exactly. And, and I think just, if you can stop thinking that you have to be an expert and just start thinking that you want to be a mentor, like game changer in your thought process of how you lead and how you connect with people.

Kelsey Chapman: Oh, 100%, 100%. And I think like it can be really vulnerable feeling to step into that role. Thankfully, I started pretty early when I was totally unqualified and it kind of just like rip the bandaid off, you know, I just don't know what I was doing. Me either. I was a young life leader at 18 and thought I had this Sage wisdom for these 14 year olds who I probably told them the wrong things half the time. And that's the thing, too. If you think about it with your mentors, do you remember like word for word wisdom, they passed down. Maybe the, maybe the little one liner about taking the elevator up versus the stairs, but like, it's not everything that you say or they say that someone's going to remember forever. It's really just showing up at big present. And so those girls that I started mentoring when they were 18 or when they were 14 and now it was 18.

Kelsey Chapman: They're 26 now and I'm 30 and there are some of my best friends there. Some of my, like I'm an only child. So they've really been the role of like a little sister to me. And I have learned as much in the process of loving them as their mentor, as they've learned from me, I've probably learned more from them as they still call me with questions and that to be a trusted voice in their life brings me so much joy. And have I gotten it right every time, no way say no, I'm there. And I love them.

Shannon Mattern: Oh, I love that. So I'm thinking back to my early business journey, like I started in 2015, uh, along the same time that you did. And I'm thinking back and like, it never even occurred to me to get a mentor. Google was my mentor. Like, I'm like, Oh, I am blazing this path myself. Like it was not even on my radar that a mentor was a possibility. Like I just operated. I it's, my personality I think is just like, Oh, I'm going to figure this out and I'm going to go it alone. And it just doesn't even come into my mind that like I should ask for help. So what do you say to people like me who were just like, you know, either it doesn't occur to us to ask for help or we think we should be able to do it by ourselves that are on our own or, um, we don't want to burden somebody else.

Kelsey Chapman: Yes. I reckon I totally resonate with the burden. It is very hard for me to need anything from anyone, which is probably why I've defaulted to like, what can I give you for your time? Because my friend Alva a best friend where we, we have such a mutually generous relationship because both of us never want to need too much from the other sports. Like here's everything. Um, but I, I typically have approached mentors, especially in business with like, Hey, I've got this skill set. Like, this is really a sweet spot where I shine. I would love to serve you in the past. That was Instagram growth. Now it's like scrappy marketing strategy, or this is what I'm learning about. That's working, you know? And, um, that has tended to become mutually reciprocal relationships, but to the others of like, well, I think I should be able to do this alone.

Kelsey Chapman: The reality is is you probably can't, uh, you can't do it alone. You can, it's hard. You probably can, but it's harder. And so why not invite someone in, because you don't know, you have blind spots til the car sideswiped you, you know, and so I think it's, it's such a gift to be able to invite people in, um, for reference this friend of mine at business. And I had a conversation on Wednesday and she's invested. So we've both invested a lot in one another in our personal and business growth journeys. She said, I was letting her in on an idea I'm working on. Yeah. Is there the element of when you let someone in, they might take it and do it themselves? Yeah, there is. But I let her in. I always think the reward is greater than the risk there. And she said one sentence that literally, I think changed the trajectory of mine here. And so I think you have a choice. You can go at it alone. And a lot of people do and they make it work. But I think there's so much more joy and fullness and shared experiences. And I think there's actually some more success in letting people in, because I really think her one sentence could be at least a hundred thousand dollar shift. And so there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of pros to letting people in, even if you don't need it and it's not natural.

Shannon Mattern: So could I know exactly what you mean about these conversations? Like that happens to me on this podcast a lot. I have conversations with people that come on the show and, you know, we were, you and I were chatting before I hit record on this about like how I just love to like, let it go where it's going to go. Um, and one of the reasons for that is I get so much out of these conversations. They're almost like many, many, many mentorship sessions because I get to talk to people who have an expertise in a totally different area than me ask them all these questions. I do get those like game changer moments where it's, it's, it's just one little thing that someone says that I'm like, that just changed everything that just changed everything for me. And I didn't even know that I had, like you said, the blind spots. So if I'm able to do that through a platform like a podcast, imagine what you could do just through, you know, finding a mentor who really wants to help with that specific thing. You know, it's just,

Kelsey Chapman: Yeah, totally. Like I think, you know, we live in a very, you know, independent society. Um, we're not as community driven as some other countries or some other societies are, or even, you know, decades past. And so I think sometimes we miss out on the, the shared benefits of deep, meaningful community. And I think finding mentors and each niche of your life that really is important to you can help you be that much stronger, that much better, that more, that much more fulfilled. You know, I have a mentor that when I moved to Colorado, I fell apart. I really did not know that freight train was about to hit me. And I say all the time, I think I met her. I think I moved here to meet her. She helped me weed through things in my life that will set me up for fullness and fulfillment, joy, peace operating from a place of peace because I can work like a crazy woman, um, and I can stay busy to avoid pain.

Kelsey Chapman: And so I, by letting her in, by, by noticing she carries something and I want that I will run all of her social media if she meets me twice a month. And I did that, I actually met with her four times a month for a year and it changed my life. Um, and so I, I'm just a big fan in every area that you want to grow and have the fulfillment and operate from a place of peace. And that you just want more find a mentor, who's killing it and ask him how they have that life, where they're fulfilled in their career, but have kids who actually like them, uh, you know, happy partnership with someone, you know, like find those people and say like, what did you do to get there? Because I know that you didn't just wish it into existence.

Shannon Mattern: I'm so lucky that my, my first like mentor who I really thought of as a mentor, kind of like found me and was like, you need me, like, I see you struggling and I can help you. And you, you, you need me, like, here's how I propose. I can help you to make this a win win. And it was the very first, um, business coach that I worked with. And like you said, it was like a hybrid arrangement. Like she mentored me and I did web design services and different things for her. And it worked out really well for a long time and it was awesome. And it was like exactly what I needed for that. I didn't even know that I needed that I didn't even know I was missing. And I was so grateful for her to just come in to my life and just, just be like, I see you down this path and you don't even know that this other path is over here. And I want to show you this other path that I'm just like, okay, all right, let's do it. You know? And that changed everything

Kelsey Chapman: That is so powerful. And you need to say that again for the people in the back, because I think for those of us who worry, we're like thinking of ourselves as too self-important or whatever, by thinking, we have the audacity to be someone's mentor, but that woman approached you and said, I see this in your life. I think I can support you. And I want to, and this could be a win for both of us, honestly, like that is encouragement for me to show up as a mentor more and to not think I'm like crossing a boundary or being a weirdo or thinking I'm more important than I really am. You know, like, again, you don't have to be, you know, famous to be a mentor. You just need to be a few steps ahead of someone to be willing to share what you know.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. And it's not like, Oh, Shannon, you're doing it all wrong. Like, let me show you how to do it. Right. It was just like, it, it was not like that at all. It was just like, I see so much potential in you. I see your, I see where you're struggling because you're blogging about like, I'm very open with everything that's going on. You know, even from 2015, I'd blog about like my journey, you know? And she's like, I, there, I could tell you like a few things that will just like, change everything for you. And I also need help here. And, and yeah, it was just, it was, it was very, um, it just didn't come off. Like, you know, Oh, you're doing it wrong. And I've got all the answers and follow me or you'll be screwed. It was, it was like, no, like just, I see potential in you. And I would love to help you get what you want.

Kelsey Chapman: And wouldn't the world be a better place if like, you know, obviously my niche is women, but men too, but like women invested in women, like I think of it this way is like my mentors allow me to stand on their shoulders to reach higher, put some girls on my shoulders and allowed them to reach higher than me. And, you know, we'll just keep building this pyramid of it and let people go further and higher because I mean, when one of us wins, we all win. And if you truly operate from an abundance mindset, you want to share and you want to contribute and you want to give back. And, and I think for those who are listening, who it feels really vulnerable to either ask for a mentor, to be a mentor, just know, like you're not alone. Those are really normal feelings, but I promise the reward is worth the risk. And you're talking to someone who's had some bad experiences with mentors too, so it's still worth it.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. I definitely think it is because, you know, you figure out what you don't want and you, you said something earlier where you're like, I don't let them just like, I don't blindly follow right now. Like I, you know, you're, you're probably a critical thinker and you're going to say, okay, well, they're telling me to do this. It doesn't sit right with me. I'm willing to question why that doesn't sit right with me and have that conversation with them. But ultimately at the end of the day, I get to choose, you know, what, what I'm going to do

Kelsey Chapman: Exactly. Like you, no one can like know in their gut, what's better for your life than you. I think it's very important to let people in a sounding board, but like, there's no way someone can be dead on for your life 100% of the time. Um, so keep that in mind. And if you hear some advice that doesn't sit right with you just move on, brush it off and say, cool. You know, 80% of the other advice I give is pretty great.

Shannon Mattern: Right? Exactly. So I have just a couple more questions for you, um, that I ask of everybody on the show and considering your background in marketing, I would love, you know, that perspective from you for this question. So for a lot of, um, our listeners who are, you know, starting businesses, um, wanting that freedom that we, that we would rather like work 80 hours to have right then 40 hours for someone

Kelsey Chapman: Else. What advice, um, what'd you give someone who's really struggling to get traction, um, getting that visibility for their business, find community. Like, even if it's not a mentor, a friend, like, you know, kind of like you were saying with your best friend, she does not know the online business world. Most of my friends, one time my friend was like, Oh, this is why I thought you were a fashion blogger for two years. And I was like, I used to take some fashion blogging posts, but that's been two years and I've been paying my bills. So you knew I had to do something. And so half the time, if you run an online business, your friends don't know what to do. They just know you pay your bills. And so, um, you know, finding some people in your industry and maybe that's like the online industry as a whole, or maybe that's like going to a fitness conference or going to your network marketing conference or going to social media marketing world.

Kelsey Chapman: Um, I found by who I call my biz bestie, um, Kate at a retreat called camp. Well, um, I'd never been to one of those. I was so nervous and it felt awkward. I'm as extroverted as they come, but when I'm not in charge and I'm in someone else's domain, I get really quiet. Cause I don't want to overstep with like my personality that can be extroverted. And so Kate and I were both a little awkward and trunk back. And I don't know, we wrote in a car somewhere together and then we just kept up after, and here we are like, we live across the country, but we see each other once or twice a year, we talk every day. And the days that it gets really hard, she motivates me to keep going or she's like, Hey, I worked with this mentor. You should give them a try.

Kelsey Chapman: They're really gifted in this. Or Hey, why don't we offer for six months, one time I swapped social strategy for her. And she did mindset strategy for me cause she's a mindset coach. And so finally good community. They won't keep you going because running your own business is not for the faint of heart. So like find the people who get it, who are on the days, you're like, I'm quitting. I'm going back to a day job. They're like, I've had that too. Now let's talk about it.

Shannon Mattern: I love it. Because one of the things that I teach my students, it's not, you know, yes, there are strategies like building your Instagram and there are all the technical strategies that you can use to reach more people. But one of the things that I feel like is like one of the most effective and like best return on your investment is just building relationships with people who serve a similar audience that you serve and providing value to the audience, providing value to that business owner, um, collaborating, doing things where it's not just like a one and done one time thing. It's like an ongoing thing where you build this relationship that, that sometimes it just ends up being business. And

Shannon Mattern: Sometimes it turns into way more than business. Like I'm like collaborating on a product with someone that like I invited on my podcast that I stopped on Pinterest because I wanted to like learn more about her. Now we just like launched this product together. That was like extremely successful for both of us. And it's like, that came out of me stopping me, just stopping, trying to do it all on my own. Yes,

Kelsey Chapman: It is vulnerable to let people in, even, even if there are some bad times next step, the good always outweighs the bad.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. And the bad, like you just, you just learn what you don't want.

Kelsey Chapman: Yeah. Oh 100%. And I will say too, um, you know, if, if you're at a place to live, maybe have toddlers and you're like a retreat. What am I getting away to a retreat? Get real. There are so many online communities are free or like $97 for the year that you can hop in. It is one of my greatest joy in leading communities to see best friends match up there. You know, I have like one of my friends who was in a program of mine last year and she was like, I just got coffee with Sam. She's basing. She just like reworked my whole, you know, food and tolerances and diet restrictions. And it's like, makes me so happy that y'all are collaborating. Like, this is why I started this, you know?

Shannon Mattern: Oh, I love it. I love it. So last question, I also ask everybody who comes on the show and that is what belief about yourself. Did you have to change to get where you are today?

Kelsey Chapman: Um, gosh, that everyone, um, had something more special about them than me. I think I tend to have pretty positive self-talk um, you know, my husband, every day lately, I was like, wow, I wish my self talk was as good as yours. Cause I'm like, Whoa, look at me last summer bought I'm looking good. You know, but even though I don't consciously recognize that I do have negative self talk under there. Even if like I have some positive stuff going on, I will look at someone else and just be like, wow, they're just, I should hire them because they're clearly more advanced than me or they're better than me or they're further along or they have these special skill sets. And I'll just, I probably won't be that, but I'll be middle of the road and good enough. And what I realized that I would love to hear if you've had this too, you start booking strategy calls sometimes with people, a few steps that you think are a few steps ahead of you charging $697 for a strategy session.

Kelsey Chapman: And you're like, wow. I already knew that I have been discounting myself. And I thought I had an arrived and that they all had something more special than me. The actually I have the skillset. So at this point, the only thing I need to work is my confidence. Cause that's, what's the problem. It's so I would love to hear if you've had that experience too. And I had a friend called me the other day and he was like, I booked, I booked this person to work with me on this project because I thought they'd bring so much more to the table than I did. And I actually did all the work, but they're taking home more money. Cause I just expected them to be more advanced. And so I paid them more for the project and I was like, we all learned that lesson.

Shannon Mattern: Oh yeah, no, I absolutely have had that experience several times throughout my journey where I'm like, okay, this is the program. That's gonna help me get to where I want to be. And then I buy the program and I'm like, I need, I need to charge more for my stuff. Because if they feel this confident charging this much for this, what am I doing? Discounting what I'm doing. Like in the very beginning, my mindset was not that clean. It was more like this wasn't worth it. Like I totally, you know, my stuff's like just this good. If not better, I wasted money on this. That's how it used to how I used to think of it. Now I've think of it as like, no, I didn't waste money on it. Like I need to be charging here or more for what I bring to the table. And, and if that's the value that I got out of that program, that was, uh, that was definitely worth spending the money to find that out.

Kelsey Chapman: I, I, I agree so much because literally that was my first round was like, this was a waste of money. Like this is unjust. It's totally just, how can they charge this for that? I need to go on a justice crusade and tell the Worldwide's frog. And then it's like, no, actually this just, might've been a $5,000 lesson. That confidence is actually what I need to work on. I've got the strategy, I've got the skillset. And if I learned something at the end of the day, then that's what I needed to learn from this. And that has been my, literally I tend to learn that lesson over and over again. And so, um, yeah.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. You learn it at like every level, right? It's just, it's like, Oh, I paid this much for this. Okay. Well it's time to raise my prices. Yeah.

Kelsey Chapman: It's like, I look at it as like a, stair-step like you just level up, you know? Oh my God,

Shannon Mattern: Gosh. So good. I could sit here for another hour and talk to you. So we are definitely going to have to do this again, but unfortunately we are out of time. Can you share it with everyone where we can go to learn more about you, where we can go to get our hands on the book and just stay connected with you?

Kelsey Chapman: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me today. We are kindred spirits and soul sisters. The questions you asked them, like we like interview exactly the same too. Um, I, you could find me@kelseychapmanon on instagram and details about the book at www.kelseychapman.com/book and you'll find everything else. Mine there too. So it would be a joy to get to connect with you guys.

Shannon Mattern: Awesome. I will link up everything in the show notes. Definitely go check out Kelsey, follow her on Instagram and get your hands on the book because we don't need to be doing this alone. You guys like we need to, um, you know, just connect with people and find our mentors and become awesome mentors. So I really, really appreciate you being here. Thank you.

Kelsey Chapman: Thank you so much for having me. It was a total joy. Thank you so much. [inaudible] book podcast.

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Kelsey Chapman is an author, community builder, online educator, and host of The Radiant Podcast. She wholeheartedly believes dreams are worth pursuing and is passionate about teaching women how to walk with purpose in their gifts and live from a place of identity and rest — all so that they can carry their dreams and vision for the long haul.

After a few years of fumbling her way through post-grad life and a brief stint overseas, Kelsey realized that her entrepreneurial itch wasn’t going away. She came home, got to work, and turned a part-time blog, and side-hustle into a multi-six-figure business in just two years.

From there, she realized her business savvy traits and desire to empower others could be translated into something bigger through teaching everything she’s learned with others. In just four years she has mentored hundreds of clients and thousands of students through building their brand, growing their platform, and stewarding their influence.

Today, Kelsey plays the role of a personal cheerleader to an engaged audience of 100,000k followers, hosts The Radiant Podcast, and empowers and equips women through her Radiant Podcast, Dream To Done online mentorship program, and most recently, her book What They Taught Me: Recognizing The Mentors Who Will Take You From Dream To Done.

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